Eurofurence Community > General Discussion
Official Statement Regarding the Policy Debate on Twitter
ScritchWuff:
--- Quote from: Cheetah on 11.06.2015, 00:16:13 ---(Edit: This took a long time to write, so while I typed this, about 10 other replies have been posted. That means, this reply is completely ignorant of them. Please keep that in mind when reading.)
--- End quote ---
Thank your for both your original statement and this reply. It clarifies most of the questions I had after seeing my Twitter timeline explode with "ZOMG fursecution!" posts. It's pretty clear that this whole blow up is really not much more than a good old-fashioned Internet flame war. It reminds me of the shitstorms they had constantly on alt.fan.furry on Usenet. And it really turns out to be blown out of all proportion. I know some German, though I'm far from fluent. I think "Massenverblödungswaffen" describes Twitter all too well. (I LOVE that particular word!) I'm glad I held off from the Twitter lynch mob that unfortunately formed over this issue. I swear social media is more and more becoming a channel for organizing angry mobs. :P
For the record, I'm a babyfur. I often host cub room parties with my friends at Rainfurrest, Further Confusion, and sometimes other cons. We're generally pretty harmless, which I'm sure you already know. We don't bite.. We just nip at your heels. ;D
I empathize with Eurofurence's staff. What I have read between the lines here (and of course I may be mistaken) is that you all have to deal with a rather high strung hotel, and end up walking a fine line to keep the management happy with or at least tolerant of furries so you don't lose the venue next year. I also can see where the hotel is coming from. They have to turn a profit the other 51 weeks when EF is not there, and if they have a certain "upscale" business-friendly image they are trying to portray, they might not want word getting out that their hotel is not a good place to do business because they have people wandering around freaking out customers and partners by their appearance. Doesn't matter whether such a view is fair or not. Life's unfair, and people are simply that way, and the hotel needs to keep potential customers happy. No hotel, no EF. Enough said.
I also appreciate that convention staff work really hard to make thing happen, for no payment, so everyone else can have a good time. It really can be a thankless job, and want to say "Danke Schön!" Seriously, thank you.
Ok, brown-nosing, aside, here's what I understand to be the case, using myself as an example:
No one is going to kick me out of the con or give me trouble if I go in the public areas in something like, say, a BunnyWarez fox kigu, or really any animal/furry themed kigu within reason. Maybe I'm mistaken, but to me it seems those types of "pajamas" are really more like an open-face fursuit than PJ's. And they're really cool to wear around con-space, babyfur or not. :) IMO they fit nicely with the concept of a furry con in general. Context: The reason I ask this is I saw in an LJ post that one fur mentioned that a statement had been made to the effect that pajamas were banned and then interpolated that such a ban must extend to kigus. Just asking to clarify since I rather doubt that to be the case.
On the subject of pajamas, one clarification in language is in order. The term "onesie" has a different meaning in the U.S. and the U.K., from what I've been able to gather. What I've seen described as a onesie on this forum is what we in the U.S. call a "footed sleeper" or a "sleeper" if no feet. In the U.S., a "onesie" refers to an article of infant clothing like a T-shirt with snaps on that go around the crotch to cover up a diaper. Just figured it was worth noting.
I assume from what I've read that the wearing of a sleeper or onsie (U.S. or U.K. meaning) that is excessively "babyish" is discouraged in public. I have no issue personally either way, and here's a little secret: A lot of us babyfurs also frown on that in public as well. Most of us really don't want to weird out other hotel guests as it can cast our community in a bad light as well. Then again, there are others that don't care about that. :(
I'm guessing I wouldn't be bothered about wearing your typical "Marci" babyfur badge, even if it showed a clean diaper. An example of the character type would be Lil' Sneezer from Tiny Toons. On the other hand, there are certain earth tone colors, which when applied to certain areas of a babyfur badge, immediately transform it from "cute" to "gross". I think you get the picture. :-\ Like I said, I'd be surprised to be bothered over 95% of "Marci" type badges, diaper or not. But maybe I'm mistaken.
That's my main questions. I will say this. Some babyfurs are saying they'll boycott EF.. All the best to them, but they don't speak for all of us any more that I do. I won't be going to EF this year, unfortunately, since it's a LONG trip from New Mexico, and I'm all out of vacation. It's on my bucket list, though, one of these years, if I can get the time off to do it.
Now let's see if I get lynched. Wonder what the babyfur word is for "Uncle Tom". :)
#p
Cheers!
-ScritchWuff
P.S. Sven, your name is familiar to me. Don't know if you remember me but IIRC we were one or two mailing lists together way back in the 90s. It's been a LONG time, though. :)
Dhary Montecore:
--- Quote from: ScritchWuff on 11.06.2015, 10:56:56 ---For the record, I'm a babyfur. I often host cub room parties with my friends at Rainfurrest, Further Confusion, and sometimes other cons. We're generally pretty harmless, which I'm sure you already know. We don't bite.. We just nip at your heels. ;D
--- End quote ---
Yepp, we know. Due to my position I come in contact with almost everything going on at our conventions and from the "on-site problem-level" babyfur parties are MUCH less of a problem than the average get-pissed-or-die room party. As you say yourself, this is only about the public appearance (not talking about damage to hotel rooms, but we get that from all kinds of room parties.)
--- Quote from: ScritchWuff on 11.06.2015, 10:56:56 ---I empathize with Eurofurence's staff. What I have read between the lines here (and of course I may be mistaken) is that you all have to deal with a rather high strung hotel, and end up walking a fine line to keep the management happy with or at least tolerant of furries so you don't lose the venue next year. I also can see where the hotel is coming from. They have to turn a profit the other 51 weeks when EF is not there, and if they have a certain "upscale" business-friendly image they are trying to portray, they might not want word getting out that their hotel is not a good place to do business because they have people wandering around freaking out customers and partners by their appearance. Doesn't matter whether such a view is fair or not. Life's unfair, and people are simply that way, and the hotel needs to keep potential customers happy. No hotel, no EF. Enough said.
I also appreciate that convention staff work really hard to make thing happen, for no payment, so everyone else can have a good time. It really can be a thankless job, and want to say "Danke Schön!" Seriously, thank you.
--- End quote ---
Thank you! Of course it is always nice to feel appreciated, but these days a simple thank you comes a long way. And yes, you describe the problem spot on. Furry conventions are polarising and powerful in the reactions they can spark. I've seen high ranked hotel staff dance with our fursuiters and have the time of their life but we've had to defend the con against Nazi scum also. It all comes down to what we represent in public. I (and most if not all of our staff) do NOT judge what adult people to in consent in the privacy of their hotelroom as long as it's legal and they don't damage the hotel property.
--- Quote from: ScritchWuff on 11.06.2015, 10:56:56 ---Ok, brown-nosing, aside, here's what I understand to be the case, using myself as an example:
No one is going to kick me out of the con or give me trouble if I go in the public areas in something like, say, a BunnyWarez fox kigu, or really any animal/furry themed kigu within reason. Maybe I'm mistaken, but to me it seems those types of "pajamas" are really more like an open-face fursuit than PJ's. And they're really cool to wear around con-space, babyfur or not. :) IMO they fit nicely with the concept of a furry con in general. Context: The reason I ask this is I saw in an LJ post that one fur mentioned that a statement had been made to the effect that pajamas were banned and then interpolated that such a ban must extend to kigus. Just asking to clarify since I rather doubt that to be the case.
On the subject of pajamas, one clarification in language is in order. The term "onesie" has a different meaning in the U.S. and the U.K., from what I've been able to gather. What I've seen described as a onesie on this forum is what we in the U.S. call a "footed sleeper" or a "sleeper" if no feet. In the U.S., a "onesie" refers to an article of infant clothing like a T-shirt with snaps on that go around the crotch to cover up a diaper. Just figured it was worth noting.
I assume from what I've read that the wearing of a sleeper or onsie (U.S. or U.K. meaning) that is excessively "babyish" is discouraged in public. I have no issue personally either way, and here's a little secret: A lot of us babyfurs also frown on that in public as well. Most of us really don't want to weird out other hotel guests as it can cast our community in a bad light as well. Then again, there are others that don't care about that. :(
--- End quote ---
There is no and has never been a ban on Kigus! I'll try to explain the rules in more detail: Kigus (as long as you wear something underneath ;P) are certainly not a normal attire in a four star hotel lobby, but they are close enough to the topic and they add to the colourful atmosphere. Most important: Normal people can integrate that image in the context of the general con easily. Yes, you might get the occasional funny look and kigus don't have access to the fursuit lounge simply as they do not qualify/require such intense care. But they are NOT banned, not even from public spaces. Onesies however are something we do not want to see in public, as an adult person in a baby stile onesie is (sorry for using this in lack of a different word) outright creepy to a uninvolved person and even most of the attendees.
The very basic rule should solve it all: If your outfit does fit the general context of the con or the theme and it doesn't creep out more than a few soap-box-boys it is fine. It's common sense, really.
Onesies, bibs, pacifiers or other obviously baby-related stuff is definitely not okay in public. Kigus or a decent badge depicting a babyfur-character are fine. Again it's common sense and we have to ask certain badges to be removed (obviously full diapers, offensive content, etc). Important point here though: EF Security does not, has never and will never confiscate badges or other property of anyone unless in duty-of-care! If someone takes a badge away from you and claims to be security, report it to staff immediately. This is theft!
And because that has been asked before: Wearing a diaper NOT visible under your clothing is fine as long as it doesn't smell. Wearing one above your clothing is an absolute no-go in public. (Yes that includes the hotel corridors). Oh and you do NOT have to inform security or seek permission if you have to wear one for medical reasons. We understand that this is a highly sensitive matter and it is nothing of our business!
--- Quote from: ScritchWuff on 11.06.2015, 10:56:56 ---That's my main questions. I will say this. Some babyfurs are saying they'll boycott EF.. All the best to them, but they don't speak for all of us any more that I do. I won't be going to EF this year, unfortunately, since it's a LONG trip from New Mexico, and I'm all out of vacation. It's on my bucket list, though, one of these years, if I can get the time off to do it.
--- End quote ---
It is regrettable that you can't make it this year! As for the others: We obviously see when people cancel and believe me, this is not a problem. I think once all the rumours and the false information about bans and rules have been clarified things will look quite different even to these few that pondered cancelling. :3
kooriki:
Eh, No need for a public apology - It's already out in the open that this event and organizers outright don't like babyfurs. It's mentioned in every "apology" line how creeped out the organizers are by onesies, pacifiers, people with teddy bears etc. We get it - You dislike them and don't want them around, but won't (and can't) stop people from doing whatever they want in their own rooms. It's not worth effort discussing why a dog collar isn't fetish attire and why a bib is - Whoever makes the con makes the rules. I do wish however that the organizers would stop apologizing because they keep using these apologies as a way to sneak in more and more ways to insult babyfurs.
Thanks to all the volunteers who put in their time to help organize these massive events. They put in tons of effort to make these events as fun and smooth as possible for everyone all without any pay. And sadly in the PR dept you get what you pay for.
Cheetah:
--- Quote from: kooriki on 11.06.2015, 16:26:50 ---You [...] won't (and can't) stop people from doing whatever they want in their own rooms.
--- End quote ---
And to make that perfectly clear: We don't intend to - with the exception of complaints, of course.
Fineas:
--- Quote from: kooriki on 11.06.2015, 16:26:50 ---Eh, No need for a public apology
--- End quote ---
Ehm... Ok nice.
--- Quote from: kooriki on 11.06.2015, 16:26:50 --- - It's already out in the open that this event and organizers outright don't like babyfurs. It's mentioned in every "apology" line how creeped out the organizers are by onesies, pacifiers, people with teddy bears etc. We get it - You dislike them and don't want them around,...
--- End quote ---
That is simply untrue. I can not speak for the whole staff, but our stance which we do all support is that everyone that identifies with the furry fandom is wholly welcome. Even if you do not call yourself furry. As long as you behave to the rules that where set to protect your from harm and at large to protect the host from receiving publicity damage, everyone is welcome.
--- Quote from: kooriki on 11.06.2015, 16:26:50 ---...but won't (and can't) stop people from doing whatever they want in their own rooms.
--- End quote ---
Which is also untrue because:
1) EF will permit you to do anything you like in your room, as long as
2a) You do not break the law.
2b) As you do not cause harm to hotel property or break other hotel house rules.
2c) Cause harm to other attendees.
(EF security will not check every room, hotel house keeping however will and will notify the hotel and in a lot of cases notify EF about it)
--- Quote from: kooriki on 11.06.2015, 16:26:50 ---It's not worth effort discussing why a dog collar isn't fetish attire and why a bib is - Whoever makes the con makes the rules. I do wish however that the organizers would stop apologizing because they keep using these apologies as a way to sneak in more and more ways to insult babyfurs.
--- End quote ---
Sorry, but I miss the reasoning in that. Why does apologizing for the social media mistake insult babyfurs?
The thing I see happening is that every-single-thing is put under a magnifying glass, taken apart, blown out of proportions and fed to the discussion at large.
Yesterday evening someone suddenly accused EF of hating American attendees. Completely ignoring that Uncle Kage and 2 go out of their way to come back each year and leave great comments about EF.
http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/Eurofurence#Quotes_and_trivia
If I'm not mistaking Sir Conway is still befriended by Andre, the German barkeeper from Suhl where EF previously had it's convention.
Just look at this hearth warming reunion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xE01WOiggmg
--- Quote from: kooriki on 11.06.2015, 16:26:50 ---Thanks to all the volunteers who put in their time to help organize these massive events. They put in tons of effort to make these events as fun and smooth as possible for everyone all without any pay.
--- End quote ---
Thank you very much.
--- Quote from: kooriki on 11.06.2015, 16:26:50 ---And sadly in the PR dept you get what you pay for.
--- End quote ---
I feel sorry you feel that way, but I guess that can not be helped.
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