Eurofurence Community > General Discussion
Official Statement Regarding the Policy Debate on Twitter
Zefiro:
--- Quote from: Ralphie Raccoon on 11.06.2015, 18:50:00 ---If I was a volunteer for the Red Cross, or MSF, and I did something negative while representing the organisation (so the organisation's twitter feed, not my private feed), I would be rightly called out on it, same as a commercial company.
--- End quote ---
Which is why the official Twitter account has apologized and is under closer internal scrutinity now.
However one account which has been cited quite often (apart from Cheetah's) is the private (previously unprotected) account of doco. Which does not, nor has ever claimed to speak for Eurofurence.
*purrrr*
Macrowolf:
The issue isn't so much the convention policies as it is the bullying culture that apparently exists in Eurofurence. For all of the good things that I've heard of this convention from Kage, 2, and others about how friendly the Germans are, I'm not seeing that here. Doco, Cheetah and whoever made the tweets on the official account will ultimately be judged on their conduct by the furry fandom, for better or worse. However for an organization to make an emphatic endorsement of bullying is never on anywhere, but especially in the furry fandom given it's history. An unequivocal apology on behalf of all of those involved with the organization, volunteer or chairman, was what was needed here. Instead, what we see is a statement of regret followed by a blaming the victim rant and endorsement of the bullying by staff and volunteers. Now serious doubts are raised over the way the convention is run, and the culture instilled in it by the leadership. The fact that Cheetah is having to moderate posts from his own staff in this thread is added cause for concern. If you were provoked, it is fine to think that and possibly share it with close friends you trust. However the face of the con you put to the community has to be one of the highest standards that rejects any bullying, no matter who started it or how heated it got. Kage and the AC staff understand this very well, but apparently Cheetah does not.
--- Quote from: Dhary Montecore on 10.06.2015, 23:44:35 ---You are measuring a volunteer organisation by commercial standards. This does not work. And yes, I am talking about the agitators. Those that sparked the entire drama by very personal and insulting tweets. I do NOT talk about the babyfur community or those (more than 80%) of the participants of the conversations that argued in a calm and respectable manner. This entire escalation is based on a few known agitators and the very emotional and unprofessional response they got. Our response is not to be excused but so are the original tweets.
Again, we are a volunteer organisation, we are NOT paid, we pay ourselves. So please do not try to force a convention organisation into a commercial companies frame.
--- End quote ---
Let's take a look at this from another all volunteer organization, SoFurry. There was a somewhat similar incident a few years ago where a member was insulted by an admin charged with helping users though any site issues. This admin had their credentials stripped. Now SoFurry is a site that nobody pays for unless they either advertise or donate, yet it is run with highest standards. Everyone pays however to go to Eurofurence, both to the convention itself and in travel expenses that can amount to thousands of Euros depending on where they are coming from. While we are mindful of the fact that it's all volunteers and will try to give you a break if some things don't go right at the con, it is within the rights of the community to expect higher standards in terms of your conduct. Yes, that means commercial standards.
I'm reminded of the old saying if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. You won't be judged when things are right, but rather when things go wrong and how you handle them. Handle them with high standards and that's when attendees will forgive the things that don't work out, and will even be motivated to give back to the convention, sponsor, possibly volunteer. Handle them poorly, and that's when perspective attendees stay away. If you all are happy at 2000 attendees, keep doing what you're doing, because you're putting off anyone else from going. If however you want the con to keep growing, there needs to be a major rethink of that statement and how all of the staff are presenting themselves to the fandom.
And to Cheetah, locking your account doesn't shield you from harassment and in fact only makes you look worse. The only things we have to go by are these "spun" accounts of what was said which make you look very bad indeed. If what you are claiming is indeed true, that you were horribly provoked into making those tweets, unlock your account. If doco has any interest in redeeming himself, he should do likewise. Let the community see the conversation in it's entirety and then decide.
o'wolf:
Moderator's hat off
--- Quote from: Macrowolf on 19.06.2015, 23:33:19 ---Doco, Cheetah and whoever made the tweets on the official account
--- End quote ---
For the record, Doco does not have access to the official Eurofurence account and never had.
--- Quote ---However for an organization to make an emphatic endorsement of bullying
--- End quote ---
We don't endorse bullying.
--- Quote ---An unequivocal apology on behalf of all of those involved with the organization, volunteer or chairman, was what
was needed here.
--- End quote ---
Out of curiosity, what makes you think that you are entitled to demand such a thing?
--- Quote ---Instead, what we see is a statement of regret followed by a blaming the victim rant and endorsement of the bullying by staff and volunteers.
--- End quote ---
That's probably what you saw, but certainly not anyone here intended to communicate. What exactly do you interpret as an "endorsement of bullying"?
--- Quote ---The fact that Cheetah is having to moderate posts from his own staff in this thread
--- End quote ---
I'm moderating this thread, not Cheetah.
--- Quote ---Let's take a look at this from another all volunteer organization, SoFurry.
--- End quote ---
I'm sorry, that's a strawman argument. How SoFurry runs their site is entirely their business.
--- Quote ---Everyone pays however to go to Eurofurence, both to the convention itself and in travel expenses that can amount to thousands of Euros depending on where they are coming from.
--- End quote ---
Have you? Personally? I mean, if not, how is that your concern?
--- Quote ---It is within the rights of the community to expect higher standards in terms of your conduct. Yes, that means commercial standards.
--- End quote ---
It's within the rights of the (prospective) attendees. And I think your are mixing up commercial and moral standards. Or rather: you are talking about etiquette. But what etiquette anyway? German? British? French? Dutch? Danish? American? And if American: West Coast, East Coast, Midwest, Southern? If West Coast: Bay Area, LA, CA Central Valley, Portland, Seattle? You know, there are differences in culture, and Continental European culture is way more direct ("brutally honest") than American culture. Given that the selectively quoted personal Twitter statements that caused the uproar were between Germans and Scandinavians, which are both known for their culture of, um, very direct communication, I have the impression that we are dealing a cultural misunderstanding here. At least to a certain degree.
Granted, the commercial standards you are talking about come into play with publicly traded American or British companies, the term is "business ethics". Which are rather strict and enforced by the respective authorities (the SEC in America). In my opinion, a lot of that is quite some nonsense. But in the end, it is part of a contract between a company and their shareholders. Privately held companies can pretty much do what they want, within the limits of the law, of course. Eurofurence e.V., as the legal entity responsible the convention, is governed by its members, currently fourty-something volunteers that are mostly active and former members of staff. It is a not-for-profit organization. The policies are set at the yearly general meeting of the organization in a democratic way. Whether we do or do not adopt some kind of business or community ethics guidelines is up to the attendees of the general meeting. We plan to discuss that topic at the next meeting, indeed.
--- Quote ---If you all are happy at 2000 attendees, keep doing what you're doing, because you're putting off anyone else from going.
--- End quote ---
"Anyone"? You know, I can perfectly understand if the whole issue gives you the impression that Eurofurence is not an event you'd enjoy. Which is a pity, as Eurofurence is a great event and a lot of fun, regardless the occasional conflict that may arise online.
Cheetah:
--- Quote from: Macrowolf on 19.06.2015, 23:33:19 ---The issue isn't so much the convention policies as it is the bullying culture that apparently exists in Eurofurence.
--- End quote ---
I'm sorry we made the wrong impression. But I can assure you that we do not have a "bullying culture" in Eurofurence. The discussion we're having here is really about half a dozen tweets and pretending that's all we are. And as I said earlier, the amount of hate speech that we got in return made our staff's mistakes (including mine) pale in comparison.
Let's take everything else we do back into consideration. All the good stuff which we have been doing for over 20 years, and still do. Do you know of any concrete examples of bullying that actually happened, in real life? And by that I don't mean any anecdotal disagreement between security and any individual, but, actual bullying. The thing you claim?
The feedback forum goes back to 2007 or so, and as you can see, people are not reluctant when it comes to criticism, and we're quite open to receiving it and discussing it in public. If we had a "bullying culture" that should be quite obvious from the feedback we're getting, shouldn't it?
Believe me, I've gotten a lot of criticism lately, and I'm learning from it. But a couple of personal tweets between individuals isn't all that defines Eurofurence, and I'm not going to pretend it is for the sake of a made-up debate.
--- Quote ---And to Cheetah, locking your account doesn't shield you from harassment and in fact only makes you look worse.
--- End quote ---
That was to stop Sibe's cronies *actually* bullying me, and I'm not talking about a handfull of misguided venting, but a week of one-mention-per-second hammering and posting "parody" pictures of me in diapers and in nazi uniform. Let's not ignore that fact.
kooriki:
Such a shame the way this all played out. I can agree that wearing diapers in the open would be a good line to draw, but the staff have decided to go the whole way and ban ALL clothing/gear/teddybears/some art - Anything that could be taken as ageplay. Babyfurs need to understand that Eurofurence is a more socially conservative furry con. The brutal comments said against ageplayers in heat by a few staffers/higher ups should not be taken as official statements from Eurofurence, just as the over-the-top statements from one or two babyfurs do not represent the larger babyfur/ageplay community. (And I suspect there have been agent provocateurs on both sides.)
Lets be clear - everyone knows babyfurs aren't walking around messing their diapers openly at cons. I've never met a person that had first-hand witnessed that. And if anyone does it is their responsibility to call that person out (Especially if you're a babyfur yourself.) Is ageplay a fetish? Not to most ageplayers, but to those on the outside its easy to see why they think that - The general public thinks of furries and the fandom as a strange fetish as well. Eurofurence gets to ban whatever they want for their event, they have singled out ageplay and BDSM, so leave the teddy bears and leashes at home for this one.
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