The Eurofurence Forum
Eurofurence Information => Feedback => Topic started by: o kill on 08.09.2010, 00:37:41
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During dead dog party when I came down in fursuit wearing my Sefurity shirt 3 staff members came up to me to tell me that I can't wear that shirt and that I'd have to change immediatly.
Eh? What?
I don't see anything harmfull in wearing a t-shirt that says "Sefurity".
After not complying with the request for 3 times I was finally told an actually reason:
"I't might confuse people into thinking you're are a security team member. And that there where complaints that people where acting up like security team members"
I didn't know security staff did service in fursuits? 0.o
I told them that I don't see any reason for me to change my t-shirt. (I could have but the only other t-shirt left was exactly the same.. So not much use for that.)
Any way afther I made them "clear" about how I felt about it they went away to check it out with someguy and came back later to tell me that it didn't matter any more because the con was technically over but also not... Yeah that makes things clear.
Later I checked the rules and yet I can't find one that would forbid me wearing such a t-shirt.. But I do wonder of one will magically appear next time after saying these words...
But still There are a few Dutch peeps with those shirts since.. I think ef 14 and we have never had any problems before nor have any of us tried to trick people into believing us being security.
Unrelated note: almost all of he people wearing those shirts are actually trained in security and/or first-aid. And are even staff members of EF...
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Okay, let me clear up these things a bit.
First off: Thank you for your kind words. The other "guy" next to Gyroplast who picked up those glass-pieces was I. Gyroplast and I form the Head Of Security.
Regarding those t-shirts / jackets, whatever:
You ARE right that there isn't a rule about this yet. The problem is that someone wearing such a shirt gave himself out as "official security of eurofurence" and gave guests wrong information and even asked a guest to move to his room for nothing. There were some complaints about that from various, not related guests so we decided we would not allow anything anymore at EF that might be mistaken for real security.
We didn't set up a rule just for that since the incident at EF 15 was the only time someone so blatantly tricked our guests and there are very few who wore these shirts at all. We like to keep our RoC simple. The rule on which we might have forced you to change would be simple:
The Chief of Security reserves the right to impose any and all sanctions against violators of these rules or those persons involved in any other unacceptable behavior. The definition of unacceptable behavior remains at the sole discretion of the Chief of Security and the Board of Directors. Sanctions may range from a friendly reminder to an indefinite ban from the convention.
That was also the reason why Gyroplast asked our Vice-Chairman if we make a exception for this because it was the last night of the con and you were in suit at that time. I can't give you a final answer whether we'll allow it or not in future yet.
Nobody except the actual eurofurence security staff officially enforces our rules or may use the domestic authority. There are reasons we choose our security staff very carefully.
But that little problem left aside I really appreciate your compliments and I'll gladly forward it to our team.
Best wishes,
Dhary
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Ah, great...
Was it one of the Sefurity shirts? Or was it someone with a shirt stating security giving misinformation?
Because there are not a lot of those Sefurity shirts in circulation, and if it was a Sefurity shirt during EF15, the list of people actually having one of those with them is quite short.
Just to be clear on the subject, it would be a pity if the shirts and vests wouldn't be allowed during EF any more.
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Was it one of the Sefurity shirts? Or was it someone with a shirt stating security giving misinformation?
Yes, it was a male person, wearing a "Sefurity" Shirt who told a few guest that some event had been canceled, leading them to miss it and ordering another guest to go to his room for the rest of the night without any reason. That guest was the first to come to me to complain about "my" security.
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I did see someone of to his room with Hoyt during EF15, but I can't recall if I was wearing my Sefurity shirt or vest at the moment.
I don't even know if that's the same guy, reason for seeing him off, which was also stated to him, was that the fine gentlemen had had a little too much of an intoxicating substance into his system and too little sleep, so he needed the rest.
This might explain the one thing, I don't know about the other. I'd like to know before EuroFurence 17 what your decision on this is, so I know if I can pack my vest, or need to bring along another. :)
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I did see someone of to his room with Hoyt during EF15, but I can't recall if I was wearing my Sefurity shirt or vest at the moment.
I don't even know if that's the same guy, reason for seeing him off, which was also stated to him, was that the fine gentlemen had had a little too much of an intoxicating substance into his system and too little sleep, so he needed the rest.
This might explain the one thing, I don't know about the other. I'd like to know before EuroFurence 17 what your decision on this is, so I know if I can pack my vest, or need to bring along another. :)
That incident has nothing to do with the mentioned one.
The guest who had been told to got up to his room didn't obey and came to me, since he knew me and asked me about it.
Anyway you'll get the decision early enough, don't worry. :)
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@o kill:
That was quite a bit bold not to accept a such reasonably explained restriction... What do you think the Con would end up for security team if every guest would reserve the right for decisions being endlessly discussed. Security members are paying guests like you and me and already have a tough job and should be granted some respect rather than being degraded to gophers bringing your little insignificant issue to the vice president (and I would rather worry to be kicked from the convention rather than expecting "justice" if that happened to me).
I witnessed the very diplomatic way some (good looking) fetish head-gear was acknowledged to be good looking to the fur but unfortunately not acceptable to be worn during the convention. Certainly noone felt unfair treated. But friendliness should not lead to not respecting their decissions.
BTW: I saw you in Suit with the t-shirt and was puzzled for a few seconds (after visiting >20 conventions). A well trained security member may wear a fursuit - why not? Other fursuiters may expect reasonable security when such a dressed suiter is the only one around with you in front of the hotel in the middle of the night. And if you claim to wear T-Shirts with "sefurity" on it you make it at the same time impossible for them to do the same and doom them to wear ordinary "security" shirts.
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Also, please don't wear labcoats. You might be confused with an actual doctor.
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Also, please don't wear labcoats. You might be confused with an actual doctor.
Zefiro: Would you mind keeping non relevant comments out of the thread please? The decision for this lies only with the Head of Security and the Board of directors.
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@o kill:
That was quite a bit bold not to accept a such reasonably explained restriction...
I would have complied if they had offered me a reasonable explanation immediatly.
But if you'd read my post properly, you would have seen it took me 3 refuses to get any explanation at all.
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@Zefiro: Although I like your point, your missing the small piece that states that someone was claiming to be security during EF15.
I've checked and there are in total 6 people who have the shirt, none of them imposed as security during EF15, so I am wondering who did? And where he got the clothing from?
I can also fully understand the situation if it isn't allowed any more, especially since we're now in a public accessible venture and people might get confused. I'm part of a security team in the Netherlands myself, and we also actively enforce a no shirts may resemble our shirts or state security on them either on the front or on the back.
Still I find it strange that apparently last year there were problems with the shirts and I have heard nothing about it, while every other day one of us was wearing their shirt...
But this was originally for comments about the security staff during EuroFurence 16, and I have to say I have no complains on that. Their response time was excellent, wherever there was trouble there was one of the Gyroplast clones, and if all clones were busy there was Dhary, although I am wondering if they've cloned him too, since I also see him climbing up and down the stage a lot.
I didn't notice any incidents, so a tip of the hat for the security team of EF; You did an excellent job.
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But this was originally for comments about the security staff during EuroFurence 16, and I have to say I have no complains on that. Their response time was excellent, wherever there was trouble there was one of the Gyroplast clones, and if all clones were busy there was Dhary, although I am wondering if they've cloned him too, since I also see him climbing up and down the stage a lot.
I didn't notice any incidents, so a tip of the hat for the security team of EF; You did an excellent job.
Thank you very much :) To be exact, there aren't really any clones of us. We just project ourself where needed. Although it'll be much less stressful once they're done moving the main AI to the Storage 9. Oh... well, not that interesting anyway :)
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Please allow me to sum this up from my perspective.
First off, it was reported to us that on EF15, someone wearing such a Sefurity-shirt actually mislead another attendee by impersonating EF security, knowingly or not. I do not think it is necessary at all to explain how this is something we'd like to avoid. Unfortunately, not every attendee insists on checking the badge of someone claiming to be security if other criterias suggest proper authority at a first glance.
For this reason we agreed to watch out for Sefurity insignia this year and ask people not to wear them at all to prevent any confusion, especially in case of an emergency.
However, when I stumbled over okill in suit with his shirt on, it was *technically* after the convention ended, during the Dead Dog Party. Security is in a bit of a limbo at this time, as our mandate formally ends on Sunday at noon, but we're still needed until Monday morning, as we had to realize once again this year as it was pointed out by the original poster of this thread. Nevertheless we tend to be more lax on sunday.
As I was talking to okill about his shirt and how I wanted him to take it off lest he may be mistaken for actual security, he explained to me how he was staffer in the stage area. While I cannot endorse his clearly annoyed attitude towards my explanations, I chalked this up to intoxication and quickly checked back with Nightfox, who was standing at the bar right behind us at the moment, if he had any problem with me giving a staffer special permission to wear this shirt. He didn't, so I let it slide and tended to other, more important problems.
I still don't see a need for a Lex Sefurity in the RoC, but it's sad that I had an actual *discussion* about this with a staffer. I wonder if there were similar discussions if unrelated people started wearing "Pawpeteer" or "Stage Crew" shirts, or if those would be tolerated by the respective crew with as much as a raised eyebrow.
Either way, this issue isn't limited to sefurity-shirts. It also covers red lanyards worn by non-staffers, badges that look alike current security or staffer badges and other shirts that suggest certain privileges, so we'll need some time to think about this and see if it actually is a problem needing explicit mentioning in the rules.
Most security members don't know all the reasons behind every single rule we ever created. Hell, even *I* don't! That's why they're supposed to escalate to me if there's a discussion cropping up, so I wonder how okill was buggered three times without me being called earlier already to sort this out. This is exactly the situation we'd like to avoid. However, I don't see how plainly ignoring a security member's instructions three times because you "didn't get a reasonable explanation" is proper handling of the situation, either.
Regards,
Gyro
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Please allow me to sum this up from my perspective.
First off, it was reported to us that on EF15, someone wearing such a Sefurity-shirt actually mislead another attendee by impersonating EF security, knowingly or not. I do not think it is necessary at all to explain how this is something we'd like to avoid. Unfortunately, not every attendee insists on checking the badge of someone claiming to be security if other criterias suggest proper authority at a first glance.
For this reason we agreed to watch out for Sefurity insignia this year and ask people not to wear them at all to prevent any confusion, especially in case of an emergency.
However, when I stumbled over okill in suit with his shirt on, it was *technically* after the convention ended, during the Dead Dog Party. Security is in a bit of a limbo at this time, as our mandate formally ends on Sunday at noon, but we're still needed until Monday morning, as we had to realize once again this year as it was pointed out by the original poster of this thread. Nevertheless we tend to be more lax on sunday.
As I was talking to okill about his shirt and how I wanted him to take it off lest he may be mistaken for actual security, he explained to me how he was staffer in the stage area. While I cannot endorse his clearly annoyed attitude towards my explanations, I chalked this up to intoxication and quickly checked back with Nightfox, who was standing at the bar right behind us at the moment, if he had any problem with me giving a staffer special permission to wear this shirt. He didn't, so I let it slide and tended to other, more important problems.
I still don't see a need for a Lex Sefurity in the RoC, but it's sad that I had an actual *discussion* about this with a staffer. I wonder if there were similar discussions if unrelated people started wearing "Pawpeteer" or "Stage Crew" shirts, or if those would be tolerated by the respective crew with as much as a raised eyebrow.
Either way, this issue isn't limited to sefurity-shirts. It also covers red lanyards worn by non-staffers, badges that look alike current security or staffer badges and other shirts that suggest certain privileges, so we'll need some time to think about this and see if it actually is a problem needing explicit mentioning in the rules.
Most security members don't know all the reasons behind every single rule we ever created. Hell, even *I* don't! That's why they're supposed to escalate to me if there's a discussion cropping up, so I wonder how okill was buggered three times without me being called earlier already to sort this out. This is exactly the situation we'd like to avoid. However, I don't see how plainly ignoring a security member's instructions three times because you "didn't get a reasonable explanation" is proper handling of the situation, either.
Regards,
Gyro
First off, I think he meant YOU asked him three times that night. And second: There is no person named "o kill" as official member of the stage-crew.
Anyway, I think it's time for our moderators to clean up this thread to it's original intention and move the discussion somewhere else.
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Let me make clear that I never said that I was part of staff or stage crew. I gave them the opportunity to see part of my face trough my suit and even showed my badge+lanyard. I would have expected that Dhary would have recognised me.
What I did mentioned is that I spend quite amount of effort and time in helping getting lights up and running.
It also might not have helped that at the time that I was in suit, the surroundings are noisy and that I was approached by 3 people at once requesting me to change my shirt.
And that approach made me feel not-appreciated to what I have done to help out.(even if it was not intended that way, but at the time I did feel that way.)
I find it a bit offensive to say that I was drunk as I never drink enough to even get intoxicated.
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Maybe we can turn around this discussion to something positive? What if official security staff starts wearing clothes which make them obviously security? To be honest, some security staff doesn't really look like it, and that might be confusing. The fact people think O kill might be security could be because it looked like he was! Due to the t-shirt! Maybe something to think about, instead of reject right away?
To me just a lanyard saying ef-security doesn't do the trick. Get some simple fancy black shirts, print Eurofurence Security Staff on them and voila. Point out to people that people wearing those shirts are official security. Seems and easy solution to me.
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To me just a lanyard saying ef-security doesn't do the trick. Get some simple fancy black shirts, print Eurofurence Security Staff on them and voila. Point out to people that people wearing those shirts are official security. Seems and easy solution to me.
In case you missed, some of us *were* wearing black t-shirts with the F.I.A-logo in our back (or in some cases, front), along with the text "Furry Intelligence Agency Eurofurence" :) We're so stealth, you won't notice us even if we have a giant logo in our backs *chuckle*
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To me just a lanyard saying ef-security doesn't do the trick. Get some simple fancy black shirts, print Eurofurence Security Staff on them and voila. Point out to people that people wearing those shirts are official security. Seems and easy solution to me.
In case you missed, some of us *were* wearing black t-shirts with the F.I.A-logo in our back (or in some cases, front), along with the text "Furry Intelligence Agency Eurofurence" :) We're so stealth, you won't notice us even if we have a giant logo in our backs *chuckle*
Well, excuse me for trying to help out and spin this discussion into something positive! I've seen those shirts by the way, but the did not made me think 'hey, he is EF security!'
Oh well, i seems like people should just not say anything at all, even if it's positively ment.
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To me just a lanyard saying ef-security doesn't do the trick. Get some simple fancy black shirts, print Eurofurence Security Staff on them and voila. Point out to people that people wearing those shirts are official security. Seems and easy solution to me.
In case you missed, some of us *were* wearing black t-shirts with the F.I.A-logo in our back (or in some cases, front), along with the text "Furry Intelligence Agency Eurofurence" :) We're so stealth, you won't notice us even if we have a giant logo in our backs *chuckle*
The F.I.A. (or Furry Intelligence Agency) was, essentially, the theme of Eurofurence 8. (source: http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/F.I.A.)
Doesn't seem like official Eurofurence security Staff - t-shirt to me, but it was a theme. Everybody could just walk around with this as far as I know.
I'm talking about plain and clear t-shirt which say: Eurofurence Security. Nothing more nothing less. People won't have to wonder what it's about then.
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I wonder why in god's name someone wants to wear 'securety' items that badly, it's about furry, wear something furry instead and make things easy for aswell the staff as the con-goers. As a regular con-goer I expect staff members (thus security) to be recognizable at all times, if someone approaches me wearing some kind of 'security' label I expect them to be security. Thank you.
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I wonder why in god's name some want to wear 'securety' items that badly, it's about furry, wear something furry instead and make things easy for aswell the organizers as the con-goers. Thank you.
Its not the fact that someone wants to wear security items.
Sefurity tshirts where there on previous EF's.
What has also not been told in the topic is that is doesn't only say "sefurity" but it also has more text on it. Sefurity and in tekst around the word: "official certified furry spotter"
At EF15 someone told the security that someone was telling people that events where cancelt and sended someone to his room.
The only thing that bothers me with this is "why is he never caught"? if he is telling people that alot of them had to see the guy but yet it is still a mistery.
The solution is quite simple. Point people to the badges.
It makes clear who is "attenend, sponsor, supersponsor, staff and security.
Its as simple as that and no one can make a mistake since those badges aint buyable at your nearest dealers den ;)
A little bit of just common sence is required of everyone.
Let the one (from ef15) not ruin it for the rest.
Especially since the guy was never found heck he may not even excist.
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Okay, that's it. This discussion is moving in circles.
@Supernova: Nobody who is not staff or security may wear any FIA signs.
I can also fully understand the situation if it isn't allowed any more, especially since we're now in a public accessible venture and people might get confused. I'm part of a security team in the Netherlands myself, and we also actively enforce a no shirts may resemble our shirts or state security on them either on the front or on the back.
If even one of your men tells us you wouldn't do anything else with your events then this is getting silly.
Fact is: There were few complaints about the same incident at EF 15. Those guests complaining were not related to each other. No, we didn't investigate that fact further since we have enough other problems to deal with at EF and it was near the end of the convention.
Eurofurence security WILL NOT WEAR COOPERATE IDENTITY. We don't care how blatant other events handle their bouncers, but at EF we are a small, selected team that works discreetly. We do not want to be seen. The FIA shirt this year were as far as we will go. Part of the reason we were called "best furry-convention security ever" back at EF 15 was our discreet, non intrusive operation and we are proud of that. Security at EF is a SERVICE to our guests, not a way to position ourself above others.
We do not want to punish a whole group of people for the rule-violation of one individual but to be asked to leave some shirt back at home is not a punishment.
The decision to this and if a specific rule is necessary will be made in the next few weeks and will be announced in this very forum as always.
End of discussion.
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This is going in circles, indeed. Discussion closed by request of EF staff due to growing headaches caused by reading all this bickering.