The Eurofurence Forum

Eurofurence Community => Special Interests => Musicians Forum => Topic started by: Nesias on 22.08.2011, 20:46:01

Title: Dark Culture Music
Post by: Nesias on 22.08.2011, 20:46:01
Hi everyone,
i got the chance to talk with Cheetha this year about the possibility of an Dance with Dark Culture Music (mainly Industiral, EBM and Agrotech but not limited to it).
As far as i got it, it is possible but we have to organize it, what would be what to play, whos dj, what did we need.
[ Cheetha if you read this please correct me if i say something wrong. ]
There is no chance that we get could get the Mainstage or the Piano Bar but one of the Sig Rooms would be possible.
Okay so far so good, now who would be interested? Who wants to be the DJ?
Title: Re: Dark Culture Music
Post by: Druon on 23.08.2011, 11:00:14
Both my mate and me would certainly be interested to visit an event like that. From what I recall about the SIG-rooms the room "München" (where the GOH had the daily panels) would be one that actually offers enough space for some dancing with DJ, equipment and bystanders present.
Would staff be able to help out in terms of equipment for the event?
Title: Re: Dark Culture Music
Post by: nifelan on 23.08.2011, 13:34:03
I believe that further dance/party events didn't take place because of music licensing issues.
Title: Re: Dark Culture Music
Post by: Cheetah on 23.08.2011, 16:24:12
Damn you're right. I totally forgot about that. Sorry.
Title: Re: Dark Culture Music
Post by: Druon on 24.08.2011, 08:08:23
How much of an issue is it? Like, is there a way to solve it or do we have to dismiss the whole idea of having such event in a SIG-room?

Also while I can clearly see the main stage busy most days/evenings, maybe there still is some leeway at the later hours. I don't think the friends of Dark Culture Music would mind that much if there was some event starting around or just after midnight (worked for the Big Blue Dance, too) - that is of course if there still is a night when you are not rehearsing or otherwise using the stage unknown to the general public. Using this EF as example, I was specially thinking about the timeslot after the Fursuit Gameshow, which ended at about 23:30h.
Title: Re: Dark Culture Music
Post by: Cheetah on 24.08.2011, 14:26:41
How much of an issue is it? Like, is there a way to solve it or do we have to dismiss the whole idea of having such event in a SIG-room?

Sadly, music licensing is a pain in the ass in Germany. All music rights belong to one organisation who have the absolute monopoly, and believe me, dealing with them is like going to the dentist without anesthesia and having your wallet stolen while you're still in pain.
Title: Re: Dark Culture Music
Post by: Barney on 24.08.2011, 15:07:06
Sadly, music licensing is a pain in the ass in Germany. All music rights belong to one organisation who have the absolute monopoly, and believe me, dealing with them is like going to the dentist without anesthesia and having your wallet stolen while you're still in pain.

Die Gema? Sadly you can't use the Kapitaen Nemo excuse for that... TAUCHEN!
Title: Re: Dark Culture Music
Post by: Thygrrr on 24.08.2011, 15:39:52
( moved this to the Creative Commons Dance topic in this forum)
Title: Re: Dark Culture Music
Post by: Dragony on 24.08.2011, 16:13:03
Dark Musik? That would be great, and that would be a reason for me to go to a dance.

My wishes: Somthing like the Playlist of www.tormentedradio.com

That would be very nice :)  8)
Title: Re: Dark Culture Music
Post by: Arcarno on 24.08.2011, 20:10:47
During this EF this topic came up a few times during conversations, so here are some thoughts about it: right now Main Stage music is a mix of house and techno ranging from softer variants to somewhat harder beats. The main argument against the inclusion of Industrial, EBM, Dark Wave etc. is that it wouldn't fit with the rest of what is played and that it wouldn't be Fursuit friendly. I am not so sure about that, because the line between the standard club hits currently employed (Aquagen, Swedish House Mafia, various hard style remixes of 90's club hits etc.) and club hits from the "dark" scene is very thin, and usually rather fluid. I mean, it's not as if it suddenly were completely different music. Sure, there are some focus shifts in melody and beat, but not to a degree that would make it impossible to dance to.

So my suggestion is this: if a special SIG cant be done because of licensing issues, why not integrate some selected club songs from the dark scene into the main dance events, so there is something for everyone to enjoy and dance to? I am sure we can come up with a list of songs that are very compatible to what is already played. If you can play Aquagen, you can also play Eisenfunk. If you can play hard style techno you can also play Noisuf-X. I'd even say if you take out certain sequences from electro/industrial club hits and mixed them into the usual song setup, you wouldnt even notice the difference.

That's my input for a start. And please, don't get me wrong: this is by no means me saying I don't like what BBF or the other DJs are playing. It is just that I think it is possible to create a main stage dance that pleases both camps in this particular case. Because the music really isnt that different, at least not if you look at the songs where those genres overlap. I can dance to house and techno, but I can dance better to Industrial/Electro. Would it be too much to ask to include something compatible from those genres? I think even those who don't know or like that scene will still be able to dance to it, just like I can dance to their music. Why? Because when it comes down to rhythm, melody and beat, there isn't that much difference after all.
Title: Re: Dark Culture Music
Post by: Zefiro on 24.08.2011, 22:09:28
Because when it comes down to rhythm, melody and beat, there isn't that much difference after all.
But apparently there is enough difference for you to not be satisfied with the existing music selection. So I guess others might be equally not-so-happy about your suggested music.

Your current suggestion sounds like BBF should put a few selected pieces sounding quite similar to his usual set right into his playlist and hide them inbetween which nobody will notice. I'm wondering whether this would really solve your desire: are you dancing all night to the BigBlueDance and then suddenly enjoy the one dark hit? Because otherwise it would be more the case that you need to be present for those, which you need to know, and our dances never had a "style timetable" (like "4am prodigy special"), so how would you know?

*purrrr*
Title: Re: Dark Culture Music
Post by: Arcarno on 24.08.2011, 22:31:15
Quote
But apparently there is enough difference for you to not be satisfied with the existing music selection. So I guess others might be equally not-so-happy about your suggested music.

Yes, that is correct, but as I said, I can still dance to a style which is not my preferred one and be ok with it. So why can't others too? Especially if those different styles are still relatively similar and made for dancing. ^^

Quote
Your current suggestion sounds like BBF should put a few selected pieces sounding quite similar to his usual set right into his playlist and hide them inbetween which nobody will notice. I'm wondering whether this would really solve your desire: are you dancing all night to the BigBlueDance and then suddenly enjoy the one dark hit? Because otherwise it would be more the case that you need to be present for those, which you need to know, and our dances never had a "style timetable" (like "4am prodigy special"), so how would you know?

Let me explain further: while dancing and listening to the music of this year's EF I sometimes felt that there were moments, where a song from the dark scene would have fit in perfectly without breaking the general harmony and flow of the overall setup. It would not have distracted from it, it would have added to it. I think there are songs out there that would fit into the existing setup quite nicely while still keeping the general integrity of the desired mood.

But hey, I am open for suggestions here :) This is by no means a crusade against the current style and setup. I just think it would be nice to have a look at a wholly untapped genre and see if there is something in it that could add to the BBF dance and related events.
Title: Re: Dark Culture Music
Post by: Thygrrr on 25.08.2011, 00:36:17
The alternative / creative commons dance I am suggesting pretty much would have a time table, simply because it would also be a platform for experimentation.
Title: Re: Dark Culture Music
Post by: Cheetah on 25.08.2011, 03:55:41
The main argument against the inclusion of Industrial, EBM, Dark Wave etc. is that it wouldn't fit with the rest of what is played and that it wouldn't be Fursuit friendly.

The actual argument is, that it is not mainstream enough. Yes, the reason is really that mundane. That being said, as I mentioned earlier, THE DISCUSSION ABOUT MUSICIAL STYLE ENDS HERE. Sorry ... it never leads to anything useful :)
Title: Re: Dark Culture Music
Post by: Cheetah on 25.08.2011, 12:05:06
Okay, I'm sorry, it was a little late yesterday, and I didn't quite realize that this was in the special interest section, and not the feedback section, so I'll re-open this thread for you. But I'm sorry to say that at the moment I do not see any possibility to fit in any specialized music events into the schedule - unless the music is GEMA free.
Title: Re: Dark Culture Music
Post by: Sinea on 25.08.2011, 15:56:45
And could it work if we play open-source-Music???
There is also a handfull good and FREE Music! Without GEMA etc.

Okay it would be not your favourite artist but that kinda Music also Rock!
Title: Re: Dark Culture Music
Post by: Nesias on 25.08.2011, 16:19:07
Okay as far as i got it only NON GEMA music... should be working for me o.O . Even some of the popular bands arn´t listet at GEMA ( correct me if im wrong).

EDIT : is was testing some bands on an gema site but after that i checked one of my cd´s and there was an big GEMA logo on it
looks like the site isn´t correct
Title: Re: Dark Culture Music
Post by: o'wolf on 25.08.2011, 17:31:42
EDIT : is was testing some bands on an gema site but after that i checked one of my cd´s and there was an big GEMA logo on it

A musical work usually has multiple copyright holders: composers, lyricists, performers, arrangers and music sheet artists. While some of them are represented by other royalty collecting associations, the GEMA handles the invoice for for public performances for all. They also have contracts with similar organizations in other countries to collect the royalties in Germany from them.

If you want to play music not licensed by the GEMA you have to prove that absolutely none of their rights are violated. Not them. Even if the author claims that everything is CC-BY-SA or something. And you will be held liable if this is not the case. Also, a GEMA member has to license all of his past, current and future work to the GEMA. No exceptions.

Furthermore, all audio CDs produced in Germany are registered by the GEMA. Even those not licensed (directly or indirectly) to them.
Title: Re: Dark Culture Music
Post by: Nesias on 26.08.2011, 22:46:38
O'wolf i know that GEMA will say that all music is Gema music, but there has to be a possibilty to find out which Music isnt gema and which is. -.- but the Gemawebsite for this is just a piece of s***
Title: Re: Dark Culture Music
Post by: Ziggy_wolf on 13.07.2012, 23:19:02
Sounds interesting, any update on this I`d love to have some industrial music.
I could get a hold of some open sorce music if that`d help.
How about black metal? doesn`t get any darker than that.
Title: Re: Dark Culture Music
Post by: Nesias on 14.07.2012, 01:40:59
Sounds interesting, any update on this I`d love to have some industrial music.
I could get a hold of some open sorce music if that`d help.
How about black metal? doesn`t get any darker than that.


There is no really update to this.
Fact is there are some reasons i will NOT do this. (and even nobody else will do it in the near future)
One is that it is to late for it now. The time you would need to arrange ANYTHING would be a bit short.

Another one would be GEMA itself, even if all of your music is open source, GEMA still could claim that
they protect at least ONE of that song and send us a f*cking huge bill.
At this point we have to send them a full list of any songs that were played (Artist name, title, etc. even who composed it could be needed)(something we maybe already have done at that time!) just to prove that they are wrong, while GEMA at the other side will remember us many times "you guys have to pay or we will sue you".
And it is also known in Germany that GEMA sometimes tend to ignore your evidence even if they prove anything you are saying in hope you will just pay the bill.

The last reason (or at least the last one i will wrote down) is, that it could effect EF too.
Again GEMA would be the one who is to charge. They could say "Oh this nice little dance is a part of the EF thing, and because you leid we want more money form EF."
Which could end in something that no one of us wants to thing about.
Title: Re: Dark Culture Music
Post by: Ziggy_wolf on 06.08.2012, 22:19:18
You know what, fuck this shit, let`s just host our own room party.
Title: Re: Dark Culture Music
Post by: Amy Ninetails on 07.08.2012, 11:53:28
all the music i have with me is under STIM protection (Swedish version of GEMA i suppose)
i got Lounge, House in various forms, Trance, Eurodance (Hands Up), Hardstyle, Hardcore (both Gabber and UK/Happy), Dubstep, Drum 'n' Bass and Psytrance.

since i work at NELite Music AB and we pay STIM licencing fees for the tracks i think i could be of SOME service atleast...
but i might be wrong. do correct me if i am :3
Title: Re: Dark Culture Music
Post by: Fairlight on 07.08.2012, 12:27:21
It doesn't matter if they are licensed in other countries... for the same reason that YouTube in Germany cannot play lots of content due to the licensing with the GEMA, even though Youtube _is_ licensed with other companies, in other countries, for the same reason.

For EF, to my knowledge, the only room where we are licensed is the main stage, and even there we need to keep track of each artist, each song, and attendance numbers to report back to GEMA afterwards, and we will get billed accordingly. I think for the bar the hotel has some kind of agreement, too, so that's another OK area.

As you can imagine, that's quite the pain.. and for that reason, it's really tricky, with a tendency towards impossible, to have any other events that contain music, at least not as part of the official programme.
Title: Re: Dark Culture Music
Post by: Cheetah on 07.08.2012, 16:27:22
We have two rooms covered, and that's the bar and the main ballroom. We don't have a license to play music outside those two rooms. Sorry.
Title: Re: Dark Culture Music
Post by: Amy Ninetails on 08.08.2012, 13:20:00
thank you for clearing that up guys :3
Title: Re: Dark Culture Music
Post by: Gyroplast on 08.08.2012, 19:38:34
You know what, fuck this shit, let`s just host our own room party.

This.