The Eurofurence Forum
Eurofurence Information => Feedback => Topic started by: Keenora on 23.08.2011, 11:22:22
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Soo, for me,the EF was really great, except some little things which were....kinda annoying.
At first and for me a main reason, was, that there was a fetish-gear horse thing, which ran around. As far as I heared it, he got some special allowment to run around at the con. I dunno who it was, nor I care about what he is wearing. But there were camera teams and a lot of children...so I totally not get it, why he was able to run around like that...
Another point were the stairs. At the opening ceremoney you told us, that the stairs will be useable for everyone, but the second floor was closed all the time. Some other floors havn't had a doorknob and were holded open with something between the door and the wall. But at least the second floor was closed all the time, when I wanted to get upstairs >.< Was a bit annoying, 'cause at some times, like in the pause of the Pawpetshow, I wanted to get upstairs, 'cause I was in suit and the elevators were just overcrowded, so I wanted to take the stairs :/
So, these points were the main things, which are stucked in my mind. But, there were a LOT of things, you changed in a good way! I really love the extra fans you put in the fursuit lounge. I cannot believe that it was still too less for all the suiters. What percentage of suiter were there actually on the con? o.o
And I really love the opening ceremoney, compared to the short words you did the last times. The way you did it this year was very useful and the ppl got all the information they needed. Another thing was the App and the calender, which made me really happy :D
The Pawpet show was also even better then the last ones. Well nothing compared to the one on EF12 :P ( I so loved the special effects )
Also I am very happy about the fact, that you put the group photoshoot and the fursuit photoshoot at those new times. No one would have been able to attend those on Sunday after BBFs dance and Kenais extra-songs at the end :3 Also it was very good to see two Dealer Dens! It was not so crowded anymore.
And, seriously, I have to say something now, which is really important. owolf did a GREAT and AMAZING job with all the camera teams on Friday. He managed to coordinate like 4 teams at the same time and also a few other reporters.
After all, I can say, it was a HELL of a party :D It was so great to have a lot of fun. Shame that some of my friends got in a depressive mood somehow...well, changeable next time ^^°
Thank you everyone for this awesome con! :D
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Soo, for me,the EF was really great, except some little things which were....kinda annoying.
At first and for me a main reason, was, that there was a fetish-gear horse thing, which ran around. As far as I heared it, he got some special allowment to run around at the con. I dunno who it was, nor I care about what he is wearing. But there were camera teams and a lot of children...so I totally not get it, why he was able to run around like that...
Can you point me to a name or a picture? I would like to know who we're talking about, since I don't remember anyone like that.
Another point were the stairs. At the opening ceremoney you told us, that the stairs will be useable for everyone, but the second floor was closed all the time. Some other floors havn't had a doorknob and were holded open with something between the door and the wall. But at least the second floor was closed all the time, when I wanted to get upstairs >.< Was a bit annoying, 'cause at some times, like in the pause of the Pawpetshow, I wanted to get upstairs, 'cause I was in suit and the elevators were just overcrowded, so I wanted to take the stairs :/
The hotel promised us to have all floors open in the left-hand-side staircases, and all floors I checked (not all of them) were indeed open. You're the first one to tell me! When did you find out about it, and who did you contact at the consite? It sounds like something that would have been really easy to fix in a couple of minutes if only I had known about it.
So, these points were the main things, which are stucked in my mind. But, there were a LOT of things, you changed in a good way! I really love the extra fans you put in the fursuit lounge. I cannot believe that it was still too less for all the suiters. What percentage of suiter were there actually on the con? o.o
We have an online statistic about that:
http://www.eurofurence.org/regstats/demogfx.html
Yup, almost 40% this year. Fursuits have become THE thing.
And I really love the opening ceremoney, compared to the short words you did the last times. The way you did it this year was very useful and the ppl got all the information they needed. Another thing was the App and the calender, which made me really happy :D
Thanks! We (and especially myself personally) were rather unhappy how last years opening went, and thanks to Pinky and the Stage Team, we were able to have something more structured on stage this time. I'm also very happy how it turned out, and unlike in previous years, it was even fun being up there with everyone else. So this is going to stay. I like my opening "anthrocon style" :)
The Pawpet show was also even better then the last ones. Well nothing compared to the one on EF12 :P ( I so loved the special effects )
Also I am very happy about the fact, that you put the group photoshoot and the fursuit photoshoot at those new times. No one would have been able to attend those on Sunday after BBFs dance and Kenais extra-songs at the end :3 Also it was very good to see two Dealer Dens! It was not so crowded anymore.
Thanks again ... we got a lot of criticism for that in the past, and we did a lot of restructuring of the timetable. Have you noticed the longer breaks between events, and increased numbers of event rooms too? Removing all events from Sunday except for the dead dog also meant a great deal of stress relief for the staff. And looking at last year's dealers den, extending it to a second room was almost inevitable. We ended up with a long waiting list, and it was so cramped it really dampened the good spirits quite a bit.
And, seriously, I have to say something now, which is really important. owolf did a GREAT and AMAZING job with all the camera teams on Friday. He managed to coordinate like 4 teams at the same time and also a few other reporters.
Now I wish those reporters would also read the goddamn fact sheets we handed them. I'm really disappointed how BAD these journalists do their work. The team of MDR (public television) even spelled our convention's name wrong - apparently I'm the chairman of "Interfurence" now :)
After all, I can say, it was a HELL of a party :D It was so great to have a lot of fun. Shame that some of my friends got in a depressive mood somehow...well, changeable next time ^^° Thank you everyone for this awesome con! :D
You're very welcome! And this time I can safely say ... we enjoyed running this convention in just the same way. It was a lot of work, but also a lot of fun.
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Can you point me to a name or a picture? I would like to know who we're talking about, since I don't remember anyone like that.
Example:
http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=magdeburgerlokalanzeig5diw.jpg#
Bottom right picture, leftmost person - that suit, while extremely sophisticated and somewhat aesthetic, crosses the "line" on many levels...
I also found some of the lycra suits questionable, but it's really hard to draw any lines there.
I suppose it would open a whole can of worms if EF started pre-approving suits... (I suppose the suiter badges are kind of a step on that way)... but maybe it's necessary. EF shapes its own mainstream culture, and with 40% suiters, likely more next year, they can make a really strong impact.
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First off, I really, really hate being fashion police. However, first and foremost, we are a furry convention, so it wouldn't make sense to allow even the most sophisticated piece of historical victorian garb, no matter how well done, if the other guests object to it.
This year I attempted to be a little more lax with our outfit rules to get some actual feedback. You may have seen some bodypainters hobbling about, as well as the odd lycra-based suit. Those were, in my opinion, not indecent and still looked "furry enough" in my book. The material used is of secondary concern, just ask some scalies there.
However, this leather-armor suit has been objected to more than once, by independent people, so we'll be having a better idea of where the limits of our attendees are. Bodypainting worked out well, though. We'll adjust our limits accordingly.
*hugs*
Gyro
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Well, Gyro, I heared a lot of Furries, who actually pointed that guy out. Especially at the DanceCompetition he sat there not that far from the jury away. And I asked a few of my friends and everyone was like: Okaaay...thats not ok :/
Well, as I said, I dont care what they are doing, or well, a compromise, let they do it at night or something. But definatly not in front of the camera teams or the children. Of course, the society is getting more open and nobody cares so far. But if the non-furry society is seeing this, it just generates the wrong idea o.o
I totally can understand Gyro though! Its hard to decide and when you decide, however what, you get 50% friends and 50% enemies. Its difficult and I really respect your position there. I still hope, its possible to find a solution for that o.o
For Cheetah, well, that fact with the stairs really havn't bothered me that much on Saturday evening anymore. If it would have been for the whole week, than I would probably have told that to some staff member. But for the last day? Nah, thats ok so far :3 It can happen :)
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I was also quite upset seen some leather suits. Specially in public places during day.
Now when I see that photo in newspaper I really wonder what message it have had send to public and youngsters.
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Hey, guys, come on! I mean, honestly, RTL (biggest German private TV station) even did an interview with him, and not once took the chance to show anything but his head. So if even yellow press / media considered him to be less of a freak than suits with boobs, skirts, etc -- leather being a fetish and not just a material might only be in your head ...
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Hey, guys, come on! I mean, honestly, RTL (biggest German private TV station) even did an interview with him, and not once took the chance to show anything but his head. So if even yellow press / media considered him to be less of a freak than suits with boobs, skirts, etc -- leather being a fetish and not just a material might only be in your head ...
If i might be so bold as to make a statement of a decidedly interwebish quality: This.
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leather being a fetish and not just a material might only be in your head ...
This might be, yeah. But if a non furry person see's it, this thought is probably the first one in their mind. I decided to not show this recording to my parents, for example. They are >60 years and I know, what my mum would think. I dont take them as a rate for everyone outthere. But its just the fact, that ppl think that stuff...
Could end up in a loooong flaming discussion :/
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Hmmm.ok, point taken. The winfoxi suit was more revealing than leatherhorse.. ^.^ And some of the body painters were even less clothed.
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Hmmm.ok, point taken. The winfoxi suit was more revealing than leatherhorse.. ^.^ And some of the body painters were even less clothed.
So true :/
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At first and for me a main reason, was, that there was a fetish-gear horse thing, which ran around. As far as I heared it, he got some special allowment to run around at the con. I dunno who it was, nor I care about what he is wearing. But there were camera teams and a lot of children...so I totally not get it, why he was able to run around like that...
Absolutely agree.
Honestly, I don't get why there always seems to be one exception being made. I remember another costume that looked very similar (horse that was basically built out of fetish gear) running around at previous EFs, and he never got sent away.
Especially since security is usually very strict about the rules (not a bad thing) and in usually things that are questionable are forbidden.
I really love showing reports and photos to friends and family, but this guy kind of makes a lot of photos awkward.
Well, at least this was the only annoying thing this year.. I feel sorry for the person with the really cute suit in the newspaper next to leatherfetishguy.
Please, next year don't make exceptions on this!
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Hello,
this is a pretty hot topic, and I would like to chime in. I would like to find out what makes this costume so offensive to you. Because, quite honestly, I think it looks rather cool. To me it looks like a piece of well crafted leather plate armour with a wolf head on it, and most interestingly ... none of the press or the public took any offense as far as I know. And also, as far as I know, the wearer did not engage in any questionable behaviour in public ... and even seemed to be very sensible when talking to the media. And the wearer also complied to our rules of conduct, and contacted us in advance, and we gave him permission to wear his leather wolf (and declined his request to wear two other costumes in public, just for the record). From a purely rational standpoint, everything was (to my knowledge) perfectly in order.
Now, I do sense a lot of negative emotions, and I would like to find out what causes these emotions. I've seen far more revealing (or outright ugly) suits than the leather wolf, and a lot of cases of wardrobe fail that I found a lot more offensive. But I only see very few complaints about those. So my theory is, that there is more behind these negative emotions than just the outer appearance, and I'd like to find out what it is.
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I've seen some leather wolf heads and armor in larp rp events in past years (even two kids rp'ing wolves) and its first time I hear its offensive.
I did not see the guys wearing these costumes at EF so I'm not sure how offensive those looked but the one on TV report was quite similar as larps I've been in.
Maybe they dont fit EF I dont know but there's been all kinds of things past years like klingons, stormtroopers and stuff the fur conventions and other conventions are combining and as they grow massively its hard to keep em appart I thinks.
Even local roleplaying conventions and anime cons now include regular furries, they dont mind "our" suits.
If you ask me, I'd like it to be just fursuits. I like body painters but dont like to hug one in my suit, I like leather armors of them awesomeness but would prob keep them just on larps aaand I like lycras how they look but realy dont know if they'd fit in this community.
Just my 2 cents :3
- Kisu
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Personally I think some furs are just victims of their own preconceptions here. I recall that leather plate armor guy and actually found it quite interesting to see such a different approach to something resembling a (fur-)suit. Some other people catched my eye, one who had these almost naked looking legs (due to some latex stuff I think?) and a couple of people in bodypainting. But other than them being an unsual sight that made me kinda look twice, there was nothing negative about them.
I think it very much has to do with how a fur acts and behaves him- or herself in such suits/dresses, that should determine whether or not they are allowed to show their stuff at EF. If someone acts mature and with common sense, I like to give the benefit of doubt even if the costume is unusual and might take some time getting used to. And as Gyroplast said, noone likes playing fashion police much. So unless someone has something more solid to offer against those than pure subjective aesthetics, I would very much like to see those people again that way in the years to come.
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I believe the Leather Wolf is a very sophisticated suit.
However, it also looks very fetish-y, especially with the metal rings on the torso, and partly because of the dark and glossy leather.
It makes me feel uneasy to know this suit was on TV and was photographed with kids. The suit suit elicited the statement "what the heck is this guy supposed to be?" from my (non-furry) girlfriend.
In my opinion, the leather wolf suit crosses the line of decency a lot further than, say, wearing a dog collar with a leash attached, which I also find questionable to the extent of agreeing with the ban.
This is, obviously, my very subjective impression. I understand it is hard to draw any lines, and that the main difficulty is to not over-ban (and stifle creativity and self-expression, highly valued in the furry community) rather than occasionally under-banning (and accepting that there's always going to be something that squicks some portions of the audience).
I do think, however, that if a suit squicks your average "full-blooded" furries (people who like multiple aspects of Furryness, e.g. art, suiting and the lifestyle at the same time), it might me crossing the line.
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Speaking as someone who has been referenced a few times in this thread, I'd like to suggest an attitude of 'live and let live'.
I was the guy in the zentai lion suit (Camrath) and the zentai gnoll suit with armour (Wandering Monster), as well as the lion bodypainter and the one that organised the British Bodypainting Invasion with my two young disciples (Tux the white tiger and Skye the sparkledog). This was set up with close communication with the security team (of which I was also an active member) and indeed I made sure that aside from getting advanced permission for my costumes that I also got them vetted 'in the flesh' by either Gyro or Dhary on each costuming day.
Costuming at EF was the most fun I've had in a very long time, and I loved how accepting the great majority of the con attendees were of people trying something different. What many of you may not be aware of is that face/bodypainting has a longer history than fursuiting in the UK- back when the UK community was first forming in the late 90s there were no full fursuits in general circulation, and so we would use facepaint, bodypaint and partials to express ourselves. I've been quietly campaigning to bring back bodypainting as an art and expression style for the past five years, and this EF I would generally consider a resounding success on this front!
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Thank you Camrath, you do have a point and I'm quite inclined to agree now.
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Thank you Camrath, you do have a point and I'm quite inclined to agree now.
Thank YOU. It's a pleasant surprise indeed to hear someone on the internet say that! ;)
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I found the leather armor quite cool and I never once thought about it in a sexual content. And I have a perverted mind :P
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In my opinion, the leather wolf does not look fettisch-y at all.
Joining plenty of LARP events myself, first thing I thought when seeing that outfit was:"OMG, what a cool piece of full boddy leather armour". I would never had the idea of seeing it as fetish gear if you would not have mentioned it here. Rings, bolts, leather strips and -scraps are common materials when creating amour.
Having that suit running around at a furry event is another pair of shoes, though. I must confess, that this fact made me frown as well. I guess some people visiting EF can feel offended of the suit because it stuck out of the crowd, had no fur at all, and people who have nothing to do with medival/fantasy/larp stuff might associate all kind of "leather gear clothing" with "fetish".
Overall, I really liked that piece, did not feel offended at all and feel not worried about it beeing in the news.
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I personally wasn't shocked that much by the leather suit, but more by the bodypainted guy. I remember seeing two of those guys at the piano bar and I really felt like "what the hell do those almost naked guy's do here??!".
I couldnt imagine myself sitting in a bar with just boxers - it's just wrong/weird to me.
And if it's to supposed to be some kind of art, I'm sorry then, but for example bondage, leashes and so on, are also sometimes considered as "art" yet still not allowed in public places at EF.
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As someone who both fursuits and facepaints (and have bodypainted in the past) I very much think that EF should be inclusive rather than exclusive whenever possible. There is no One True Way of expressing your inner furriness, neither should there be. I thought that the mix of fursuiters, bodypainters, zentai costumers, the leather wolf, people with tails and ears, and people who just looked normal (well nearly!) was exactly how EF should be.
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I personally wasn't shocked that much by the leather suit, but more by the bodypainted guy. I remember seeing two of those guys at the piano bar and I really felt like "what the hell do those almost naked guy's do here??!".
I couldnt imagine myself sitting in a bar with just boxers - it's just wrong/weird to me.
And if it's to supposed to be some kind of art, I'm sorry then, but for example bondage, leashes and so on, are also sometimes considered as "art" yet still not allowed in public places at EF.
I for one can't imagine myself sitting around in a full fursuit- sweaty, uncomfortable and wrong and weird to me. Some may consider it to be 'art' or 'performance' but everyone knows people really only have sex in them...
Change it around, and maybe you'll see my point. (Note, not all of the above is my actual opinion on fursuits- I love looking at them, but couldn't stand to wear one) One man's oddness is another man's normality or comfort zone. In the case of myself and other bodypainters it's a way to get closer to our totem animals, to provide a different form of performance art, to just let go and become part of the crazy scene that is furry.
Oh and in addition each of us was wearing more than 'just boxers', and was completely within the con's dress codes and behaviour guidelines.
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I think, after reading the last messages, we should come back to the main part, the feedback. I think this conversation goes too far away from the Feedback-Topic, doesnt it? o.o
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What was the subject then - purple feedback? Sorry to spoil the hue when this turns into a much more interesting discussion about suiter policy with even the chairman asking for feedback...
Bodysuits depend a lot how the guy wearing it looks like in panties. So far I was always lucky seeing just sexy lean furs wearing them. Still I consider it a major danger for fursuiters to run into such a guy and end with an copy of it on the suit. It should be perfectly clear that it is the reponsibility of these persons to keep an eye on their environment or when they are distracted by talk they may even need a spotter to avoid any unwanted impacts - suiters with their limited vision cannot do this. But it's just a general fear, everything was fine this year.
And what is wrong with the fur looking in my eyes like a heavily plated chinese warrior in leather outfit. Might have been even a furry wearing it if yor imagination suffices. Can't be so difficult to "explain" this in the context of Kung Fu Hustle and a main-stage with something like the chinese wall in the background. I found this costume great as well as the decission to allow it. If people lack fantasy even discussing "roleplaying anthropomorphic animal characters" can get you caught, not a reason not to do it. Maybe just explaining special allowed suits here, in the con book or at a board in the lobby might suit everyfur's need.
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Ok we talk about negative or less negative emotions your policies imply then and you cheetah (posting order changed) eh well... read it - I hope so ;)
You noticed I didn't really discuss them much but just pointed to me feelings being confronted with these policies being applied to the Con (sorry for my inconsiderate writing)
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Look, I can see that I may have stirred up an untintentional hornet's nest when I didn't mean to. Perhaps another thread to discuss this topic is in order? Or failing that, please do feel free to PM or email me. I don't bite. Much. ;)
As the only zentai suiter at the con, and also the organiser of the bodypainting group I'd be very happy to talk openly to anyone with any questions, concerns or (non-flaming) opinions on the matter. It's something I genuinely consider an art-form, and my intentions were always to open up the eyes of those who might be interested in giving it a try themselves, rather than to shock or horrify.
Last post in this thread by me.
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Can we please keep this an actual feedback thread? We will take everything written here very seriously - but please understand that the EF board of directors can and will not discuss policies in public. We're a large convention, our focus lies on what furries have in common. Sometimes that means that certain special interests need to take second place - and there's no foolproof way to come up with a 100% rational decision that will make everyone happy. Rest assured, that there's never any ill intent on our side - we just want people to get along.
Philosophical discussions about our policies are not very helpful - there are 1000 attendees, and 1000 different opinions - and most con-goers have a hard time relating to the social challenges organizers have to face when running such a large event.
What helps is feedback about things that acutally happened at the con, and what the consequences were for you personally.
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indeed the leather suit was something of a "wtf" thing even for me, cool, yes, but there were a few things that were slight to obvious "fetish" gear with it, like the leather arm-restraints/handcuffs at the waist, could be exchanged for an actual sword belt or something? and some of the rings sitting in obvious possitions that an actual armour wouldn't have them in. and then a more practical issue of the claws on the boots that might not, even if only ?leather? be very nice to get accidentally stomped or scrached by. didn't really stop him to check what they were, but they cought my eye.
when it comes to body painters, taking it to the more public perspective, there are commercials (at least in sweden) more offencive then that, especially about one of the SONY mobiles were a guy runs around in only speedoes. and lots of TV-shows contain worse stuff as well.
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and lots of TV-shows contain worse stuff as well.
I dont think so, friends, and parents of friends saw the TV-Reports and nobody sayed anything bad to me yet.
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Well, I think I have to apologize my words, regarding Smashwolf. I sounded harsh and the drama went its way, due my feedback. So I want to apologize myself to Smash, that I started this. I know, it was not the best way to tell my opinion.
And so I am sorry, for everything what happened.