The Eurofurence Forum
Eurofurence Information => Feedback => Topic started by: nifela on 27.08.2011, 18:27:09
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Posting this also on behalf of some others who'd like to remain anonymous;
first off, thanks to all who made last EF such a success!
There's just one thing I'd like to mention, or request for future EFs, and that regards the balloons in the main lobby. Some people (including myself obviously) really aren't all that fond of balloons (major understatement to some). Now of course one can't keep éverybody happy, but it's something I've been asked to mention. During the wait for the pawpet show it kind of got too much for one fur as she somewhat panicked (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xyi-31d_Prg) from the many balloons popping, and due to the big crowd she couldn't easely run away. Another example being a fur that didn't see the show live as getting to it meant crossing the lobby, which was a no-go.
So as rediculous this might sound, please take it into account next time (that'd be you, Skeppo ;)). I do think it's okay during the parade and such, as the open space and 'outside' helps alot for some. I obviously can't ask for a ban on balloons lol, but it'd help to stick to roomparties etc. regarding, instead of flooding the public areas. :) I can't randomy throw my stuff around in the lobby either, right? :P
Well, thanks. :D
Oh yes, yes, yes. I know this too well. Waiting for the show to start was very stressful - even with the earplugs I carry with me all the time.
What was even harder for me personally though was having the balloons in the actual seating area of the stage (before Kage or Bitter Lake iirc).
I too would like to kindly ask to respect the fears and phobias of your fellow furs.
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Sorry, but I really, really liked the balloons as a kind of "crowd control" while waiting for the PPS seating to start. I did not like them being popped though, and they were a nuisance or worse in the stage room itself (both during PPS and during the dances) -- but, er. A phobia of balloons? I hearthily respect all kinds of challenges attendees might have, but how many people are actually affected by Fear of Balloons?
(Besides, they were, AFAIK, in no way initiated nor encouraged by EF staff. Nor does my opinion reflect the official one of EF.)
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I'm sorry, but at 1000+ participants it is practically impossible to take any individual's possible phobias into account.
Even if 10 persons felt offended (quite a high number), that would make 1% of attendees affected, and 99% unbothered.
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Well it's not the balloon itself it's rather the loud bang and there had been quite a few people(myself included) who really didn't liked it. So it might be an idea to not use them/use them in private.
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Oh my .. this is a complex topic! I totally agree with balloons inside the main ballroom ... during events, they are an unwanted distraction, and possible a slight danger to equipment, so there's no reason to allow them in there.
But the first thing that caught my eye when watching the linked youtube video was, that the majority of furs there seemed to have a very good time - most likely a much better time than they would have had without those balloons. They are a popular party accessory, and one of the simplest toys ever invented. Sending security out there to take the balloons away probably would not have gone down well ... after all, people had nothing else to do. So, on average, it was a good thing to have the balloons out there. It kept people entertained and occupied, instead of being bored and frustrated. Great stuff.
On the other hand, if you have a phobia about balloons popping, I can fully understand why that might have been a very frightening situation for you - and that it's not your fault, because you are what you are.
Now comes the hard part. You're basically asking me for a decision if I should let 500 people ruin the fun for you ... or have you ruin the fun for 500 people. I'm not going to answer this ... if you ask that question this way, every answer is a wrong answer.
Is there anything we (or you, or us together) can do to improve the situation for you that does not require me to make such a black-and-white decision? Maybe we can find a workaround?
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Well it's not the balloon itself it's rather the loud bang and there had been quite a few people(myself included) who really didn't liked it. So it might be an idea to not use them/use them in private.
The question is, is it really just "not liking it", or do you have a serious problem that prevents you from enjoying the following events, or even frighten you so much that you have no choice but leave. We can't take everything away from the lobby, that somebody just "doesn't like". It takes a bit of tolerance to be in such a large group, I'm afraid.
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My big concern regarding this issue is: I've seen glasses and drinks almost getting knocked over by balloons more than once. So, while I had no problems with the balloons themselves, I found it quite annoying always having to watch out for balloons when I tried to sit down somewhere to relax and have a drink.
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Hmm... since I mainly saw balloons coming from one single person (who like balloons just a little more than your average furry nudge-nudge-wink-wink), maybe we should talk to that person, and kindly ask him to not outright flood EF with them. The occasioal balloon really doesn't do much harm, they are so lightweight, you'd have to bat them around with a lot of force to tip over a drink.
I don't really want to place a ban on balloons ... I think that would send a totally wrong message to the people.
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For me personally, it's a constant fear whenever I see or hear a balloon. I am terribly afraid of sudden, loud noises and balloons provide a great source to nurture this fear. I can alleviate this by plugging earplugs into my ears, which however isolates me from more than just the balloons.
If I'm prepared and know or notice in advance that there are balloons, I can wear the earplugs and continue on pretty much normally - the only drawback is that I have a hard time talking to people or noticing if somebody says anything.
This is however not so much an ideal option for the actual stage room itself. I don't want to take the fun and distraction away the balloons provided during the wait for the pawpet show, but I would very much mind if there were balloons in the lobby during the entire con. While waiting in line for the doors to open, I turned my back towards the lobby and lived in blissful ignorance of the balloons.
I certainly didn't like the balloons in the main stage area however :\
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My apologies for my previous post. A fear of the loud noise of a popping balloon, especially during the stressful situation of being stuck in a crowd, is something I can comprehend much better. I also agree that this might affect a significant amount of congoers.
So it looks like everyone here would like to see no balloons at all in the ball room, in the sig rooms, or (gasp) in the art show. Regarding special occassions, like waiting in the PPS line -- what about other ways to keep everyone happy? Would beach balls solve the problem, or do they have too much destructive potential? Giant soap bubbles would be nice, but I think their residue will be much too dangerous. Anything that's not floating will hardly be seen by the majority of the crowd. Some kind of performance on the balconry of the Conference Floor? Hmmm ...
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I have to say, I popped back to my room while the balloons were being bounced around in the Pawpet show queue, and it looked really, really cool from above! :)
I don't suspect suggesting adding balloons as a feature to the photoshoot would go down to well considering the angle of this thread! ;)
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I don't suspect suggesting adding balloons as a feature to the photoshoot would go down to well considering the angle of this thread! ;)
Please, no more balloons. The thought of having to run around the entire hotel wearing earplugs and being in constant fear of popping balloons isn't very comforting.
I can tolerate it, if they are used sparingly (eg. only while waiting for the doors to open for the pawpet show) but please, no more than that. Its stressful for me personally already, since I always end up in rooms on higher floors and I'm afraid of heights (and partially elevators, especially when people start bouncing around in them).
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I don't suspect suggesting adding balloons as a feature to the photoshoot would go down to well considering the angle of this thread! ;)
Please, no more balloons. The thought of having to run around the entire hotel wearing earplugs and being in constant fear of popping balloons isn't very comforting.
I can tolerate it, if they are used sparingly (eg. only while waiting for the doors to open for the pawpet show) but please, no more than that. Its stressful for me personally already, since I always end up in rooms on higher floors and I'm afraid of heights (and partially elevators, especially when people start bouncing around in them).
When I was a child, I used to be very afraid of balloons, too. Ask my parents, they still remembered my extreme reactions when balloons were around... It was close to a panic. At some point in my life, this irrational fear went away and I have no problems with them anymore, but I do understand anyone who has... It's going to be a difficult decision to make.
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I'm sorry, but at 1000+ participants it is practically impossible to take any individual's possible phobias into account.
Even if 10 persons felt offended (quite a high number), that would make 1% of attendees affected, and 99% unbothered.
I totally agree with doco.
What if someone is allergic to fur fabric? Would we have to ban them too?
No. That goes a little bit too far.
As long as the hotel administration or staff does not object balloons, they are totally okay and fun for (almost) everyone!
Maybe you could talk to the staff next time in such a situation so they reserve you a seat while you can wait elsewhere for the beginning of the event?
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I'm sorry, but at 1000+ participants it is practically impossible to take any individual's possible phobias into account.
Even if 10 persons felt offended (quite a high number), that would make 1% of attendees affected, and 99% unbothered.
I totally agree with doco.
What if someone is allergic to fur fabric? Would we have to ban them too?
No. That goes a little bit too far.
As long as the hotel administration or staff does not object balloons, they are totally okay and fun for (almost) everyone!
Maybe you could talk to the staff next time in such a situation so they reserve you a seat while you can wait elsewhere for the beginning of the event?
Someone who would be allergic to fur fabric most likely would have a hard time going to a furry convention in the first place.
All we people suffering from this are asking is to keep the amount of balloons under control. They aren't an essential part of the fandom and being constantly subjected to the possibility of a balloon popping (or fireworks going off etc. - same problem and fear there) is producing a lot of stress for a group of people.
Completely dismissing this as irrelevant is hurtful, seeing how well this thread has progressed so far :(
I'm not asking for a complete ban on balloons or other items which cause sudden, unexpected and loud noises. All I'm personally asking for is to limit it to a sensible time as well as space. There really is no need to have balloons bouncing around in the main stage area or to have balloons constantly floating around in the lobby. The waiting time for the pawpet show wasn't comfortable for me but I was quick to pull out my earplugs (something which I can only recommend to anyone suffering from the same phobia - get a few sets of earplugs and carry at least one pair with you all the time) so it wasn't a constant, dreadful fear.
Needless to say, I didn't hear (or rather: understood) much other things, such as announcements (in the main stage area or from Kage).
Wearing earplugs during stage shows also wasn't an option, so whenever a balloon was bounced around in the seated crowd, I had a really hard time trying to relax and not constantly tensing up and being terribly afraid.
So please, take our viewpoint, our problems into account before arguing against us. It's stress- and hurtful to us.
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The only time I saw a balloon inside the main stage room was while we were waiting for the auction to start. It was one single balloon, and the moment the waiting ended it was put away and it never appeared again. Judging by the sounds of the crowd (“awwwwwww!” “yaaaaaaay!”) most of the people there had a lot of fun. From the viewpoint of someone not affected by this irrational fear a bunch of you seem to have (actually, way more people than I first thought), it was a much more pleasant and a much less obnoxious pastime than the “Oi! oi!” from previous years. As for stage equipment, people seem to have been quite careful not to throw the balloon at things too expensive (and even if the balloon had touched something and it had come off – I would say said thing could have come off on its own; needless to say, no such thing happened).
I don't know a solution to this, but these are my two cents.
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The fear of loud noises isn't so irrational, as loud (sudden) noises are quite real ;D
Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonophobia seems to describe at least my problems quite well. I am terribly afraid of balloons in general and am easily startled by sudden, loud noises (with the after-effects lasting for several minutes up to half an hour). That's why I carry earplugs with me all the time - to counter such loud noises.
New years eve (or Bonfires/"Funken" in particular) have always been a horrible experience for me until I discovered earplugs.
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I really don't want to see balloons getting banned. They have been a great source of fun to my friends and me and helped alleviate the time waiting in front of the Pawpet-show a lot. Pictures of the balloon incident showed up in forums, blogs and twitter, so I guess it really was that popular. So no, I don't want that fun taken away due to a phobia. But maybe there are other ways to help, maybe minimize the problems coming up for the affected furs.
While unfortunately loud noises will be a given at any convention of that size one way or another, I agree that we should limit sudden non-voice loud sounds where we can. Like asking the guests not to pop balloons on purpose! The balloons themselves where pretty sturdy, from my experience they only went pop due to people using needles, keys or sometimes sharpened fingernails. So if we add a line to the rules of conduct, asking especially for not destroying balloons in public spaces, I am pretty sure that would help your problems. Also we could clarify, that they are not allowed during most shows and SIG-panels (unless the event taking place works with balloons somehow), limiting them to public places and maybe dances (though I would like to hear the input of other dancers and the DJs on that one).
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I can completely understand the fear of loud noices and can put myself into the shoes of people that have this fear. It is however already been noted that the people that have this fear are in the minority here. From what I read no one is asking for a ban on balloons just for some consideration as to when they are being "Deployed", I think that is a fair question.
I'd personally freak out if a clown would pop up in the waiting line to the PPS... seeing I have a fear of them. The only real reason I bring that up is that clowns and balloons go hand in hand most of the time, but also that having a fear that few people have is usually put aside as not important and ignored for the sake of the majority. (not saying that is the case here)
Its only normal to ask for concideration and it shows respect to then read, think and show some of it.
Btw, those huge balloons floating around, one of which exploded about 1 meter to my right after the premiere and I had the shock of my life, geez that thing made a huge bang. What the hell are those made of? :)
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I think its no option to ban balloons completely but we have to find a way that is fine for everybody.
Bringing a balloon with you and looking after it is fine, flooding the lobby with balloons is not.
If something brakes or glasses fall over, the owner has to pay for it.
Making them explode near other people is a 100% nogo in my opinion.
If you want lots of balloons around you don't take your fetish to the public, do it in your room where everybody is fine with it.
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Most people know that I find it hard to resist popping a balloon I stumble across (which is more living up to my reputation and "playing my role", than actually the fetish ;D ), and even though I was not on this EF, I broke some of the larger balloons on previous EF, one time even more or less on behalf of con security. So as a regular con goer, I do feel adressed of this topic as well.
Aside of people being terrified of balloons popping (which I can relate to, being afraid of that as a child myself), there are also people who love/care for balloons, and hate to see them destroyed, out of an emotional stance. And having a fear of popping balloons is not rediculous, and needs to be respected same as for example the widespread fear of spiders. You would never expect anyone setting a pet tarantula on some waiting peoples shoulders either, and consider this nice behaviour. Sneaking up on someone, popping a balloon, especially if it is theirs, is just plain rude.
Aside of that, even if you are invited to pop one, or the situation arises on abandoned balloons, it is always a question of politeness and courtesy to first ask, not standing in a middle of a waiting crowd, and warn people loud and clear about what is going to happen, to give those in fear some time to realise what is going on, and to react.
In other words, trying to not being an a**hole already goes a long way, and should mostly solve this problem. Even gave me some friendly thanks from "non-poppers" afterwards for warning people. I could live out that role as manic balloon-shredding rodent I am infamous for, they were not surprised by it, and in the end, everyone got along nicely. This is where this pic came from (there was even a ring of onlookers gathering before the bang): http://media.furcon.de/Eurofurence/ef16/Skeppo/tn/IMG_9404.JPG (http://media.furcon.de/Eurofurence/ef16/Skeppo/tn/IMG_9404.JPG)
If people remember that they are not alone on the con, you're already halfway there.
And NEVER be ashamed of your phobias - you should see me jump if a wasp comes close :D
Cheers,
SewerRat/Frazzle
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If you want lots of balloons around you don't take your fetish to the public, do it in your room where everybody is fine with it.
While I agree on some points, such as "no popping balloons on purpose" or the "pay if you break it", I personally think this is a bit too extreme to be a description of what was happening in the lobby during the PPS queue.
There were quite a lot of balloons, true, but I think most of the people there just had some genuine, good fun out of it, without the need to venture into fetish-y territory...
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Hmm this is a difficult one. On the way back from EF I talked to several people who had a lot to say about this and it made me think. It seems to me (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that the balloons are not the problem, POPPING them is. And the way they can destroy things and knoxk over e.g. glasses. So I suggest the following:
We intentionally let lose some beach balls (or whatever non-popping equivalent of a balloon that we can find) during the times/at the places where this is appropriate. And we make sure to tall people that they are not allowed in places where they can do too much damage such as the piano bar. This should hopefully solve most of the problems while still allow people to have a bit of childish fun.
Would this solve the problem for most people? :)
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Popping them may be the real problem, but a lot of people develop a fear of balloons altogether just because they do pop. Seeing a balloon brings on the fear that it will pop so they become scared of balloons themselves. Even if they don't pop, people may still feel uneasy being near them.
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For me Pinkies idea seems nice and not to hard to carry out. So from my point of view I'd be happy with that.
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I don't think beachballs would be helpfull here. They have a lot more impact than your ordinary balloon. And are much more likely to knock over things they come in contact with. While on EF17 sometimes balloons took me by surprise, colliding with my head and face when I wasn't expecting it. It never did any harm due to the balloons having just not much of a force behind them mass wise. With beachballs I would worry, had them knocking glasses from my nose before.
So I'd rather keep the balloons and urge people not to destroy them on purpose.
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One of the biggest problems I had was at one point people were throwing them off the higher balconies- and this wasn't even before an event, this was during the day when people were sitting at those tables eating and drawing and doing other things, it wouldn't have taken much for one of those balloons to have landed in the middle of someone's meal.
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Inflatable balls come in many sizes. Perhaps a little smaller balls would be fun? And then confined to etc. the main stage room or something. Security could keep an eye on people leaving making sure they don't take the balls with them as they exit.
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Popping them may be the real problem, but a lot of people develop a fear of balloons altogether just because they do pop. Seeing a balloon brings on the fear that it will pop so they become scared of balloons themselves. Even if they don't pop, people may still feel uneasy being near them.
Yes. Telling people not to pop the balloons won't alleviate the anxiety and fear because the balloon could still pop any second.
So basically this is now boiling down to finding a safe method to entertain a bunch of furs for an undefined amount of time :)
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Inflatable balls come in many sizes. Perhaps a little smaller balls would be fun? And then confined to etc. the main stage room or something.
While that might work, it would be mostly beside the point: Once inside the main stage room we usually are entertained by either the stageshow itself or some animated fluff on the screens, while last preparations are done. It is the long waiting time in front of those rooms that caused people to be overjoyed by the ballons. They provided a welcome distraction.
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Maybe next year there could be a department of 'unforeseen delay entertainment'? Uncle Kage showed up this year but he was a bit too late...
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Just because it's not been said before: I think it's totally antisocial, rude and a little bit ignorant and dumb to destroy someone else's balloons. It's like acting like kids. That IS NO FUN and NO entertainment for others.
The ballloons we're talking about were very nice balloons with nice printings on them, which were PROPERTY of someone, even though they probably aren't roughly worth the meal they'd destroy if they would have dropped into it.
And apart from that, everyone KNOWS that there are some people with fear of balloons and you do us NO favor by being in charge for the start of a discussion like this one (of all things, the guys which like to pop balloons should know BEST about other's fear of balloons).
It is rude, ignorant and counterproductive to pop our balloons, which we were having lots of fun with, obviously!
The result will be a ban of the balloons - in a more or less minor extend - and some annoyed and freaked furs which couldn't enjoy the wonderful evenings with us.
I would say: ban people with needles instead!!!!!! NOT the balloons.
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mmm you dont need needles to pop a balloon, just poking it hard to try to make it fly high is enough to make it explode, and I guess most of the time it was unexpected.
the plastic used for common balloon is not really sturdy.
now if we used some of these large blowup balloon intended for beach fun (which are still relatively light) the risk to see them explode would be much reduced, but then the risk it would topple a drink glass or something else would be higher too and that may not go well with security.
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@ MartinRJ
Yes, it is rude to pop them.
But, its also the owners responsibility to take care of the ballon, and that is not possible if you throw like 10 if the giant ones into the lobby.
Balloons are fragile after all and they also pop when they hit sharp corners and that can happen everywhere in the lobby.
Its simple, just don't overdo it, if you bring one balloon with you nothing will happen :)
If there is a person (but i doubt it) who runs around and pops them to cause trouble, just tell the security, its easy.
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I'm afraid of fursuits. Can they be taken away please?
;D
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I didnt personnaly mind the balloons, they looked wuite good all in the air, and were a distraction from the wait to go in, I only started minding on a few things which are -
People started to pop them deliberately with keys or other objects they had with them, I did see this being done, and being big balloons they made a big bang and made me a little jumpy. Its fine to have fun and bat them around and throw them in the air, but theres no reason to deliberately pop them so they bang that just ruins the fun for other people. Also in agreeance with Nightfox if the person who threw them over the balcony didnt want them to be popped they shouldnt have thrown them over because as well as deiberate popping, accidents do happen.
The second annoyance was that in the dance in the bar the lighting wasnt great (not a complaint it was just darker than the lobby) and being in fursuit which adds to vision impairment, someone kept throwing these large balloons at me and other suiters. There wasnt alot of room on the dancefloor and it was difficult to dance whilst not stepping on balloons and falling over. Also being hit on the head with several large ballons from differnt directions was a little disorientating and put me off my dancing. I didnt mind it at first when I first came on the dance floor, and bounced some on my nose, but after a while of having these things thrown at you from all directions the novelty soon wore off and I left as I almost slipped on one on the floor.
So whereas its fine to have fun, I think just common sense should apply.
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I'm afraid of fursuits. Can they be taken away please?
;D
We'll be glad to dispose of you.
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I agree with most things said here.
I myself are very afraid of loud and sudden noises, regardless how silly and stupid some people seem to think it is, and those balloons in the waiting line scared the living shit out of me. I was really in a dilemma because on one hand I wanted to run away but on the other hand I really wanted to see the shows on the stage as well.
What to do? In the end I ended up staying there with my fingers in my ears and my heart sitting in my throat, but maybe next year it could be a little less scary experience. I agree that a total ban on balloons is not an option. It was really mostly during the wait it was a real issue for me because I had no where to "run" so to speak. Ofc I could just have left the que but then I would have missed out on the show. Random balloons in the lobby and or other areas during normal hours of the con doesn't bother me because I can just walk away if I get afraid.
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Next year fill them with water ;)
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I'm sorry, but at 1000+ participants it is practically impossible to take any individual's possible phobias into account.
Even if 10 persons felt offended (quite a high number), that would make 1% of attendees affected, and 99% unbothered.
Which is exáctly why I left it at a kind request - I fully realize how rediculous it'd get to take ánything into account, but just wanted to mention it. As said in the first post I'm in no way asting for any ban of some kind, which 'd obviously be impossible.
Now comes the hard part. You're basically asking me for a decision if I should let 500 people ruin the fun for you ...
I've been véry carefull nót to ask that question! I hoped I was clear in the first post that that's not at all what I'm after, but just to be sure:
Banning random things because someone míght dislike them isn't an option. Politely asking someone specific to take one or two things into consideration for the future is, right? :3
I think its no option to ban balloons completely but we have to find a way that is fine for everybody.
Bringing a balloon with you and looking after it is fine, flooding the lobby with balloons is not.
If you want lots of balloons around you don't take your fetish to the public, do it in your room where everybody is fine with it.
^That.
Okay, I sense this thread nearing its end of life ... I think all good points have been said (and taken), and before this turns into off-topic chatter, I'll lock this thread now - if anybody still wants to add something that has not been said, feel free to contact me personally.
Edit: The posts of the original author have been removed by request. I moved everything he said into anonymous quotes in the subsequent articles to preserve the context. For future reference: Plase, people, make up your mind about what you want to publically post BEFORE doing so. You can always contact us by email if you think you have a matter that is too sensitive to be discussed in public.
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Skeppo wanted to add the following, and since the thread is closed, I'm doing it here for him:
Only one "Skeppo" balloon was thrown into the lobby from me. It was the purple one with the "Skeppo" print on it. The other balloons in the lobby have been blown up by other furries.
There are two different prints on my balloons, but all of them have the name "Skeppo" on it. I didn't know that the mentioned things would happen and I'm really sorry that I hurt people with my balloons. I just thought it would be nice to entertain the waiting crowd with one of my balloons, I wasn't expecting such a chainreaktion.
Right now, I’m feeling very sad, because I feel myself responsible for that what occured. I understand how it feels to be afraid of loud popping sounds. I'm afraid of that, too. But what should I say? Balloons are my life, and if someone is popping one of my balloons just for fun, it really hurts deep within me. Well, at least I have to deal with it but that's one reason why I would never drop so much balloons into the lobby.
At my roomparty there were balloons popped to but that's a whole other situation, in my opinion. My apologizes to those who don't like my balloons and who got hurt in some ways........ I just wanted to make people happy not to harm them.
Skeppo
My comment to this: Don't worry. A single balloon certainly did not any harm, and while I take people's phobias very seriously, it's reasonable to expect that most people see balloons as something fun and harmless. As you can see on the video, the majority of people there had a wonderful time.