The Eurofurence Forum
Off Topic => General Furry Talk => Topic started by: Cheetah on 08.11.2013, 12:51:51
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Ha!
I knew this headline would get your attention :) I've been pondering if this is the right forum for this topic. This is not an official "Eurofurence" related posting, but more of a personal philosophical question that has been bothering me for a while, and since it IS kinda con-related (although not limited to EF), I've finally decided to start a discussion here.
I know that gender can sometimes be a vague thing, but let's put that aside for the moment. We all know that furry cons have a very uneven male-to-female ratio. At Eurofurence our attendence is roughly 89% male and 11% female. Without going into speculations why that may be the case, it lot of potential to create tension, as according to recent polls, the majority of the furry fandom is in fact not as gay as prejudice wants to make us believe. Or to put it bluntly: There's an awful lot of single men, and as such, how do you even get started looking for a girlfriend, date, or even just a flirt?
I recently came across an "advice" article by JM Horse (which really is more of an opinion piece), that brought the topic back to my mind, and while I strongly disagree with the "advice" given in this article, I think it is about time we start talking about these things. If you have the time ... please give this a read:
* [adjective][species] : How to pick up (furry) women (http://adjectivespecies.com/2013/10/21/how-to-pick-up-furry-women/)
Now, I'll give you my personal opinion on this article. I think the author brings up some interesting facts, but I totally do not agree with his conclusions:
It's true that women are staying away from public furry gatherings, and they're staying away because they are being harassed by men who are hoping to pick them up, talk to them, or just make friends. Data collected online (ref Furrypoll) and data collected at large conventions (ref IARP) show this trend: online we're (around) 80% male; at conventions we're (around) 90% male.
That's actually misleading ... the numbers show that women are less likely to attend conventions, but none of the cited studies tell us anything about the actual reason - instead the (persumably male) author draws his own conclusions from anecdotal evidence. On the basis of this assumption, he gives us the following advice how single males are supposed to approach women at furry conventions:
* Furry gatherings are a Safe Space. Don't approach any woman who is not already a good friend.
* If you are interested in someone, ask online or over text (not in person) whether she is interested. Make it brief and respectful. If she isn't interested, drop it. Forever. Consider this person for evermore to be a friend of yours.
Wow, that's pretty extreme. But later on, in the comments section he goes even further:
Essentially, if you are approaching someone female because of her gender, I think that you're contributing to a significant problem in our community.
And his final advice for us singles out there:
Being single can be lonely. It can be easy to think of a relationship as something you need. This is compelling but flawed.
So, in short: Don't bother. You're outnumbered, and women don't want to be talked to, and being lonely is great! Well, maybe I'm exaggerating, but what strikes me is that his whole observation is terribly one-sided ... and that is, a 100% male centric view. The concept that men talk to women to "pick them up". Very bold claims about what women think, but it doesn't seem like women had any actual contribution to this article.
So ... I would like to ask ALL THE WOMEN in this forum (please, dear flying spaghetti monster, let there be any reading this, or this will end up very embarassing for me) to give us your own view on the situation. What advice would you give men trying to approach women at furry conventions? Before going to your first furry con, where you concerned about unwanted attention? Has this actually held you back? How were your actual experiences at furry conventions? Did you get a lot of creeps following you - more than your male friends? Any stories to tell? Would you agree with what JM wrote in his blog article? Or do you disagree?
I'm dying to hear your answer.
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My reply to this article can be summed up as:
"what."
I have been harassed at conventions -- furry, sci-fi and anime alike in fact. I don't think this is unique to furries (or men). For the sake of not writing an essay though I'll stick to furry cons. Yes, I've had my share of creeps at EF. To be very honest, I expected this to be less of an issue at furry cons (male gay majority) vs sci-fi cons (male straight majority). You can call me naive, I guess I was :-). I've had the usual inappropriate touching, inappropriate offers, stuff like that. It's always been handled wonderfully by Security might I add, I've never felt unsafe. Ever.
For every creepalicious male I met though, I've met a LOT of really nice guys. It's ridiculous to say guys should not approach a girl because omg she may have had some bad experiences at cons. Yeah, those bad experiences happen. Such is life. A furry convention is not set up to be my 'safe space', it absolutely should not be. I don't mean these incidents are OK or should happen. They're not. But to expect every man to therefore treat me and my fellow ladies like queens? Wow. No.
I much prefer to be amidst men and I enjoy their friendship. I'd hate to think I may not have met close friends because they took this article seriously and didn't want to approach me. (OK, I suffer from resting b*tch face meaning I look extremely unapproachable when I'm lost in thought ;)) I've gotten a few very close friendships with men from this fandom, they talked to me because we share an interest and there's no underlying "plot" of picking me up. The article seems to suggest all men at furry cons to talk to women -just- to pick them up.
Advice to give? This actually goes for anyone, male, female, inbetween, whathaveyou... Be polite. I know furries tend to be quite big on hugs, but I don't like to have contact like that with strangers. I can do a handshake. Say your name. Talk. I've met a lot of people that sort of...quietly hung in a corner without ever speaking to me and that is disturbing. I know not all of us are social butterflies but a "hi" goes a long way. I see a lot of quiet staring and lurking about and that creeps me out a lot. With an article like this though, I can see how males get discouraged.
Also, for goodness sake, don't go "hi I'm LittleLion69 I'm gay I like thisthat fetish". I don't care. I don't need to know. I don't want to know.
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I disagree so very much with that article as well.
Well, EuroFurence20 will be my first FURRY con ever, but I'm really looking forward to it and not dreading any unwanted attention - I've been a cosplayer for 4 years and LARPer for 1½ years now, and so, I'm already used to all the attention and luckily, I've only met one or two guys who bordered on the creepy side. Everybody else have been very nice and open. I've been a furry for a little over half a year now, and still I've only gotten the positive kind of attention from other furries. Then again, of Danish furries I know a little better, it's about a 50/50 ratio of males and females.
But my advice to the guys would be; just be yourself. Be open, friendly, kind, do exactly what you would do to approach a woman outside of the convention area. Don't be pushy, let her take the steps along with you, and you'll be just fine!
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My wife stopped attending Eurofurence a few years ago, though she'd been a regular attendee, and introduced me to some of the finest people I got to meet in the fandom.
One of her listed reasons was her getting hit on again and again (and, I am led to understand, quite a little bit awkwardly).
In general, I think the advice highlighted by Cheetah in the top post would contribute toward making her feel comfortable returning eventually.
Do you want me to poke her about this matter? I can't promise she'll reply herself (females taking contrary positions in largely male-dominated online groups can get nasty very, very fast, though of course I hope we're all better than this here) but I'll relay her position as needed.
Edit: In fact, it occurs to me it we may in general obtain more useful answers from women who stopped coming to EF. Is Taran still around this forum?
Edit edit: Erm, not to say the above contributions aren't useful. :/ I meant, if the question is, "Why are women in the fandom less likely than men to come to EF?" then the women not coming are likely the best people to ask.
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I'm afraid I would have to agree with a lot of what JMhorse says. I suspect it's written from a slightly embittered point of view, but you can only write honestly from your own experience, and I suspect what he writes reflects what he has seen, which also matches what I have seen.
I would not approach any woman at a furry convention that I did not know. I have seen way too much talk of "creepy male furs" to risk being branded as such simply for existing.
I fully appreciate that people will disagree, and trust that disagreement is based on their own experiences. But I've seen what I've seen.
So how do you get a girl in the furry fandom? Be as pretty as you can and they'll come to you!* ;)
*Not based on actual experience! ;)
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Oh yes, I want to emphasise I totally understand why women stop going to conventions. I was this close to just giving up and hiding under the duvet at this year's EF x) To later get reactions along the lines of "it wasn't that bad" "women overreact" was basically icing on the cake. This happens a lot, which makes women afraid to speak up about the matter. (Again, I -have- met a lot of super nice guy friends, I -know- this is a minority and EF Security thankfully never plays the "women overreact" game.)
I'd just honestly hate it if all males would stop talking to me and not approach me at all though :( I can see why, I just feel it's a shame.
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I can't agree with this article at all I'm afraid. I had two relationships with females and both started at Eurofurence and both women got interested because I just talked to them as a friend without any hidden intends. So I'd say you SHOULD approach female attendees, but maybe guys should remember to be gentleman about it. Just be respectful, polite and above all don't be creepy. That's all I'd suggest to be honest.
Most attendees aren't creepy or weird at conventions, but some are. And the fandom is quit easy with talk about sexual stuff. That de-sensitizes even those, that are perfectly fine straight or bi males.
So yeah, be yourself, talk to females but excercise manners and you should be fine in my opinion as a male. :3
And I can assure every guest, especially female attendees, that Eurofurence security takes every complaint seriously. Reports can be made in private, in one-on-one talk and of course we have female security officers to take your report, if that's your wish. Harassment will never be tolerated at Eurofurence and we will push for the maximum penality in any case of sexual harassment. That's a promise.
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Hi, I dusted this account (I didn't even remembered I had one) to answer the topic.
I am Balinares' wife, and went to EF 11th to 13th if my memory's good. Then I had kids.
Anyway, first thing I should say is that if I didn't already knew a bunch of male furry friends around whom I was comfortable (especially as one of them was my "special someone") I would never have come. Because I was shy (still am, but slightly less, I guess), and there was no way I'd go all alone in a convention filled with guys.
It's true I've had my share of unsollicited attention, though I never feared for myself or felt insecure.
If you want my opinion on the subject, I'd say that the problem at EF isn't the number of males per se, it's the number of socially awkward males. The article quoted above just seems to me as written by someone who has no idea how to basically interact with people (especially female people) and tries to write a guideline.
I can agree with the "don't come expecting to find love" thing, but do speak to females if you want to ! Just keep in mind some basic stuff : not everyone is interested in what you have to say, listen to what is said to you and of course no contact without asking first (as should be the case with males too in my opinion)
Now if the question is "how to convince more girls to come to EF ?" well, I don't really know. I remember going to a "female only" event once (EF 11th maybe ?) and was quite struck because they all seemed to already know each other and I felt really out of place. It's sad, though, because I rather liked the idea.
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I've been going to EF now since EF17, and I haven't had any bad experiences. Though, I guess I'm not the most feminine out there, and when fursuiting most people think I'm a guy, so I guess that..helps?
But this article, telling you to basically not talk to us is kind of weird. How will you ever get to know anyone if you follow guidelines telling you "not introduce yourself" or to approach someone unless you are friends? I would say the best way would just be to actually introduce yourself with your name (nickname), cause... talking to some person you have no idea what to call is kind of weird, isn't it? Then you would just be "that guy that came over, we had a nice conversation, but I have no idea who he was".
The one this I agree on is that you shouldn't talk to someone with the intention of maybe have any kind of romantic connection, cause that's where it get's awkward. But talking to someone because you want to say hi, is not dangerous at all.
Just don't get clingy, act normal, be happy, a convention is a social place after all!
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What advice would you give men trying to approach women at furry conventions?
Same as everywhere else - try to act normal. Do not start a conversation with the goal of getting a date - that often ends up weird or creepy.
Before going to your first furry con, where you concerned about unwanted attention?
Actually, I went to my first con when I was very new to the fandom and had not heard about such things much. So I was not worried.
Has this actually held you back? How were your actual experiences at furry conventions?
Sometimes I got hit on. But more guys were of the "nerd who doesn't know what to say" type, not creepy. A friendly, harmless kind of weirdo ;). And in case I had to tell someone to leave me alone because i didn't want to talk to them, they always stopped. I never got bothered any further after asking them to stop.
Did you get a lot of creeps following you - more than your male friends?
I guess it is about the same amount as for the guys, but that is a feeling, not a statistic.
Any stories to tell?
Funniest story so far: My boyfriend was jealous of me going to a con with so many guys. Then he saw that noone was flirting with me, but someone slapped his butt while dancing (and I was the only girl around, and it was not me slapping him). That sounds kinda creepy, but it was more hilarious.
Would you agree with what JM wrote in his blog article? Or do you disagree?
I disagree. Before reading this, I had never heard of any girl saying "I don't go to cons because I got hit on". I don't think it is that much of a problem. But I have to admit that I'm rather goood at ignoring people I don't like, others might feel different about that.
Even if a creepy person bothers you, there are always plenty of friends around at the con who will help you get rid of him.
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What advice would you give men trying to approach women at furry conventions?
http://adjectivespecies.com/2013/10/21/how-to-pick-up-furry-women/#comment-50290
Like that person wrote. If she likes you, her behaviour will tell you within the first minutes. Even in what way.
Before going to your first furry con, where you concerned about unwanted attention? Has this actually held you back?
I have been on so many Anime Cons before and never had a problem with other people, so no.
How were your actual experiences at furry conventions?
I have been on 2 EFs so far and only met nice people. Well, I was surprised that most of them are guys, didn't expact that, but didn't have a big problem with that.
But it would be nice to have more female furs around. When I hang around in a larger group I prefer not being the only girl because it makes me feel more comfortable.
And I found out that the guys there are more open minded, took me some time to get used to it. Sometimes it gives misunderstood signals.
Did you get a lot of creeps following you - more than your male friends?
No.
Any stories to tell?
On the first EF I was invited to a little roomparty. The person really tried to persuade me. I was really unsure if I should go because there others were all guys I didn't know. Met only one of them once that day. I did go anyway and we had a little conversation before we went back to the main area.
Would you agree with what JM wrote in his blog article? Or do you disagree?
I don't agree or disagree. Some things are true.
I can't understand girls who don't go to furcons anymore just because they get hit on. Then they shoulnd't visit any event.. For me conventions are a place to have fun and meet friends.
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Hi Cheetah, hi everyone. I'm JM, the author of the article. Thanks for sharing and thanks for provoking this really interesting discussion.
I wanted to chime in with a bit of extra information. For starters, the article is based on a lot of conversations, formal and informal, in-person and online, with furry women.
I first wrote an article for Adjective Species looking at the how the gender disparity in furry makes things difficult for heterosexual mean, a couple of years ago (http://adjectivespecies.com/2012/05/14/its-raining-men/). That provoked a fair bit of comment, and it became clear to me that furry lacks female voices that describe the scale of the problem. I received comments like:
"The harassment I receive both from straight men AND gay men is overwhelming, and I can see why women attracted to men would be looking outside the fandom for a mate."
"I have encountered a lot of guys who either didn’t know or didn’t care that I’m in a monogamous relationship, and proceeded to attempt sexual roleplay with me."
"Heterosexual males in the fandom often make things worse on themselves. I’ve had men send me naked pictures of themselves, threaten me for my phone number, and sometimes harrass me only to tell me that I am a heartless bitch because they can’t help harrassing women because they have autism."
Since then I've been asking around in the hope of finding a woman who would be interested in writing for AS on this topic. I didn't have any luck, and so I decided that a guy (i.e. me) writing an article is better than no article at all. (The offer is still open for women, or anyone, to contribute an article to the discussion.)
As Sundance pointed out, you need to talk to the women that are not going to conventions. The data suggests that something like half of furry women choose to stay away. To be honest, I suspect that the numbers are worse if you consider that so many women are artists who attend conventions for the dealer's den. I'd be curious to see what your 89/11% split looks like if you exclude those people who are dealing art at EF.
And finally: being single can suck, and there is nothing wrong with a guy pursuing furry women. Do it the right way: make friends online and offline and wait to be introduced to friends-of-friends. Don't make uninvited approaches to women at conventions.
My article generated a lot of interesting comment and criticism, which is always great. I'm planning on writing a followup. If anyone has stories to share, or wants to agree or disagree, please feel free to comment here or drop me an email at jm@furrynet.com.
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TL;DR
Cons have creepers, RL does too.
I haven't been active in the furry community for long, and this years EF was my first one.
What I can say is that no matter if small meet or big con, there'll ALWAYS be those guys who hit on you, even if you're hugging and kissing your significant other. He couldn't come with me to EF due to work, so I basically depended on friends dropping the "How is your boyfriend doing?" question once in a while when someone started making advances. Most of the times it worked.
I've noticed that guys are... lets say cockier, when a female is in her suit. I went to the dances, and when I was out of suit, friends danced with me, I had a good time. When in suit however, I had a guy directly going for me and trying to dance with me in specific poses. Needless to say I wasn't too amused, but it happens.
I knew such things were going to happen and I was prepared for them so I was prepared for those situations. Do it like the penguins from madagascar. Smile, wave, and then leave the scene and get back to somewhere where you are more in control, eg your friends, the suiterlounge, etc.
But apart from the creepier people, I also met a lot of awesome people, even if I mostly never even learned their name. I remember scenes in the Sauna where we were cracking jokes about the male/female ratio and how females don't have to be afraid because all guys are gay anyways. (we were 18 people and I was the only female, the rest was strictly gay)
The "creepy" guys can be found anywhere, not just as cons, so I think women don't have to be 'afraid' to go there. IF you get stalked by a guy, find another woman, talk to her, and ask her for help. Alternatively, you have friends.
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IF you get stalked by a guy, find another woman, talk to her, and ask her for help. Alternatively, you have friends.
If someone is stalking you at a convention, I'd also suggest you write down the name (and/or as clear of a description as you can manage) and perhaps when, where, and what he was doing. Then (if you think the issue is serious enough) find a security person and discuss the issue with them. Clear and concrete information can be very helpful for security in preventing them from doing it again.
My advice for writing it down is mostly because convention chaos and stalker-induced stress could mess with your memory while talking to security. With so many colorspecies walking around, writing down the name might prevent a mixup and the wrong person being accused. You know, "We warned PurpleBadger to not bother you again." -"PurpleBadger? Oh, I believe I meant PinkBeaver!". =P
That said - I'm not a security person, perhaps they don't even see the use of this. It's just what I'd do. Writing down several incidents and presenting them as a list sure helped me a lot when a teacher was picking on me at school, and I imagine it would work for creepy stalkers as well. =D
As for "picking up furry women", I think the core issue here is that you shouldn't approach women with that in mind in the first place. Approach them as the interesting human beings (... or whatever species suit they might be currently wearing) they are, not as potential partners. Don't be desperate, they'll sense it from a mile away, and it sure won't make them like you more. Show them you're interested in more about them than just their gender. If you aren't, then you're probably talking to the wrong person anyway. And for the love of all that is holy, learn to pick up signs of when to get the hell out of there, and act on them.
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And for the love of all that is holy, learn to pick up signs of when to get the hell out of there, and act on them.
That's very easy to say. I'm not convinced it's that easy to act on, though. I've seen countless times that people speak about non-present other people "They don't get it, do they? They should really learn to XXX", but very rarely that they are contacted directly. I know I'm not - so either I'm a brilliant human being without flaws (yeah, sure :), or it's just part of our social culture to NOT speak to persons and just hope they "would get it" by repeating whatever (subtle) signs are agreed on by the majority, but actually never teached. Everyone expects them to "get it", to "learn it", but for those who genuinely are not aware of this coded language there is little help to learn it. Those who know, of course, will not see the issue, probably also disregard it altogether (I'm used to ad hominem attacks when I bring this topic up). So the actual descriptions of our female furries here what they experienced and considered creepy is quite helpful.
*purrrr*
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IF you get stalked by a guy, find another woman, talk to her, and ask her for help. Alternatively, you have friends.
With so many colorspecies walking around, writing down the name might prevent a mixup and the wrong person being accused.
I suggest getting the badge number, too. There are some pretty similar names out there.
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Are there any security statistics for numbers of past reported incidents available?
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That's confidential information, but I can say that the number is very, very, very low. In the context of this discussion I might add though, that while all the "you should report unwanted attention to security" advice is well meant, when there is the need to call security the damage has already been done. Depending on your self-confidence, one bad apple is all it may need to seriously ruin your day - or even the con.
What worries me as the chairman is not only the actual situation, but also the psychology - part of the reason why furry cons are unpopular with women also seem to be a self-fulfilling cognitive bias. If you come expecting to be treated in a special way, you can easily end up actually waiting for it, and things that would not have registered with you under normal conditions become suddenly a lot more significant - just because of the way you've expecting them to happen.
Judging from my own experience and what security reports to me at the con, and also the reactions here in the forum, I think EF is a very safe place, regardless of sex, gender or orientation. So I don't think there is much we can do to improve the experience in that regard. However how do we get rid of that psychological effect that makes women FEEL insecure without trying to force our demographics?
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*late reply*
I've only had a stalker at a smaller con (not EF), but brought it up here because it propably happened at EF too.
Also, if someone's following you, how on earth are you supposed to get the name and badge number? Tbh, I'd have better things to do then walk up to him and look at that person's badge.
What I DID have is meeting someone, who I talked to once during the EF. I returned home to a Skype add... and a lot of pictures of my butt while in Suit. I too have been asked if it's possible to do a "private shooting" of said butt at the next EF. Was easily solved by a NO though.
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And for the love of all that is holy, learn to pick up signs of when to get the hell out of there, and act on them.
That's very easy to say. I'm not convinced it's that easy to act on, though.
I agree with you there, and I'll readily admit I'm far from great at it myself. But I'm convinced I'm better at it now than I was some years ago, and my aim is to be better at it still in a few years.
All I ask from people is for them to look at themselves, and try to make sure they aren't creeping people out. Reading about negative experiences of women (both furry and non-furry), especially online and at conventions, is indeed a great start. Tip: if you can't see the problem, you're probably a part of it.
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However how do we get rid of that psychological effect that makes women FEEL insecure without trying to force our demographics?
I suspect reiterating the very small number of reported cases would help. Otherwise this thread does come across as quite frightening, as it is full of past bad experiences, and doesn't really paint a true picture of what you're likely to encounter.
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if someone's following you, how on earth are you supposed to get the name and badge number?
Just point them out to a member of security instead.
If you don't feel comfortable approaching a stalker yourself, security will be happy to ask them to leave you alone for you.
Just please don't expect security to take further action the first time if all the person did was follow you at a distance. You see, If you have not approached this person yourself before and asked them to leave you alone, this is the first direct warning they get.
If the behaviour persists, talk to security again.
What I DID have is meeting someone, who I talked to once during the EF. I returned home to a Skype add... and a lot of pictures of my butt while in Suit. I too have been asked if it's possible to do a "private shooting" of said butt at the next EF. Was easily solved by a NO though.
That is the best solution. So many awkward situations could be prevented if everyone just mustered the courage to say a clear "NO".
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What I DID have is meeting someone, who I talked to once during the EF. I returned home to a Skype add... and a lot of pictures of my butt while in Suit. I too have been asked if it's possible to do a "private shooting" of said butt at the next EF. Was easily solved by a NO though.
I know how that feels like. I know 2 people who creeped me online after a convention. One them after EF.
And I think I would give that person a hurting facepaw on the next convention if he/she would make pictures of my butt without asking me
Everyone can make photos of me, even without asking. But only "normal" photos, not of certain areas -.-
I think thats a main reason why girls don't want to visit Furcons, there are some guys who only want pictures like that or other creepy things.
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Well, I'm a girl, and I do get unwanted attention, both IRL and on the Internet. Sometimes I even do not specify my gender when registering at a forum, and they mistake me for a male (mainly because of my «brutal» nickname), and I'm totally OK with that. Seriously, when a guy thinks I'm male, we can talk normally, but as soon as he finds out I'm a girl, he starts perceiving me as a female, not as a person. That's the problem. So my advice would be as follows: when approaching a girl, forget that she's a girl. «What a cute avatar, did you draw it by yourself?» is an appropriate way to start a conversation. «Hey, you look cute» / «Your eyes are amazing» is NOT. You wouldn't tell that to a guy, would you? ~_^
Before going to your first furry con, were you concerned about unwanted attention? Has this actually held you back? How were your actual experiences at furry conventions? Did you get a lot of creeps following you - more than your male friends? Any stories to tell?
The largest con I've been to is Rusfurrence (200~300 participants, of which ~90% are guys). I went there with my boyfriend, but we were interested in unlike activities, so we often ended up in different locations of the hotel, and it looked as if I was single. From time to time, random guys made attempts to start a conversation with me, and all of them were, like, «Oh, wow, a girl! What brought you here?» My reply was always the same: «My boyfriend invited me». On hearing that, some disengaged immediately, others started an interrogation: «Who's your b/f? Do I know him? Why isn't he around?» One of them seemed to disbelieve every word of mine, he even tried to stand me a drink >_< So my next piece of advice is: give her the benefit of the doubt. After all, if you suspect that she is not being honest to you, why would you want to deal with such a liar?
Anyways, I can't say that any of these cases were troublesome. I've experienced more impudent harassment at my place of work (and on the Internet, of course, but that doesn't count). My final advice might sound controversial, but I'll still declare: no means no. Sure, the girl might be flirting, and her «no» might actually mean «maybe», as that joke about female logic asserts, but still — don't be too pushy. What you mistake for minauderie, might be her natural voice. (This is my case BTW: my voice is somewhat squeaky and meowing, which makes me sound exalted and rapt, even if I'm not.)
I could talk on this subject for long, but here in Moscow it's 6 AM already, so I'm wrapping up for now =) Kudos to everyone who plowed through this post, any objections and amendments would be appreciated =)
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I strongly disagree with that article. I find it rather stupid to be honest. So men should not approach women at cons (unless they are already friends) because then they will come off as creeps? Ah come on get real. Why should a woman, who just happens to be part of the furry fandom, be any different than from a woman who does not share this interest?
I had my share of creeps both inside and outside the fandom. Basically just use your brain a bit when you interact with (ANY) kind of person and you should be good. Just walking straight up to a woman and grab her boobs or crotch (that happened to me on several occasions both inside and outside the fandom) and then expect her to just want to jump into bed with you is what the majority would consider a very impolite and bad move.
If you just talk to us like you would talk to any other person you should be fine in most cases. In general, if the girl is not interested she will tell you and then you respect that choice, but that does not mean you are not allowed to talk to her ever again. My advice? Act natural, talk to us like you would talk to any person and just avoid randomly groping others private places without permission.
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I'm generally a little bit disgusted about parts of mankind who treating women as a property...
Okay, I'm a little bit different from other women, I'm a little bit stronger and have my (and sometimes straight) ways, to take my point. And in the past, it was very very rare, that someone harassed me. But it already happened. To me, too. Years ago on an other convention. And I really hated it.
Guys, take a look at us: We are always kind, if you are kind, too. But please: Don't scare us. The world is hard enough for us. If you don't know about, and if you don't believe us, take a look to http://everydaysexism.com/ and recap about your personal behavior.
Stay calm, have a good time, do not get any hopes, make friends with the person you like, but don't tell her about fetishes at the fist time. Do not overstate yourself, be normal, make your business as usual. And don't make any drama if it's not working, how you expected.
And the main thing: A "No!" from a woman means always a "No!". And nothing else. There are no spaces for interpretation and a "No!" is never a signal of shyness. A "No!" is what it is: A cancellation of your request and a straight border, you should never cross.
And Sex is not the answer of everything. Many woman are not amused, when they were treated like an object, that you can use only for sex. And it makes me sick and sad, that I read about someone (a woman) who was looking for a room-mate for EF, and everything she gets was a request for sex...
Think about...
And to all, who had problems about harassments at the con: Talk to me, please, and we find a solution. At the University, I'm working as an Equality Officer in the department of Mechanical Engineering since a couple of years and had some skills.
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I'm generally a little bit disgusted about parts of mankind who treating women as a property...
True, but I'd like to add: Same applies for women's behavious towards men. Some ladies can be creeps, too.
And the main thing: A "No!" from a woman means always a "No!".
No means no, no matter who says it.
Actually, I'd prefer not to get any "special treatment" as a girl. You do not need to open doors for me, buy me drinks or try to flirt with me. Just try to see me as a person ;). If you want to get to know me, just say Hi and start a conversation. Don't try to do something different just because I'm a woman. Just act... normal.
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I'm generally a little bit disgusted about parts of mankind who treating women as a property...
True, but I'd like to add: Same applies for women's behavious towards men. Some ladies can be creeps, too.
And the main thing: A "No!" from a woman means always a "No!".
No means no, no matter who says it.
Actually, I'd prefer not to get any "special treatment" as a girl. You do not need to open doors for me, buy me drinks or try to flirt with me. Just try to see me as a person ;). If you want to get to know me, just say Hi and start a conversation. Don't try to do something different just because I'm a woman. Just act... normal.
Thanks for editing. You wrote it better than I have!
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And it makes me sick and sad, that I read about someone (a woman) who was looking for a room-mate for EF, and everything she gets was a request for sex...
*Sigh* Sad but true. I've been also pondering on how a (single) girl can find a decent roommate. The only idea that comes to my mind is to specify plainly: «Straight girl, looking for a female roommate» — but won't that be sort of… sexist? ^^*
Actually, I'd prefer not to get any "special treatment" as a girl. You do not need to open doors for me, buy me drinks or try to flirt with me. Just try to see me as a person ;)
My point exactly ^^
I've stumbled upon a wise discourse at a Russian website similar to notalwaysright.com (http://notalwaysright.com), it's about gender stereotypes.
Source: http://zadolba.li/story/8448
An attempt of translation…
// Note: «самец» and «самка» in Russian refer primarily to «male animal» and «female animal», respectively. «Личность» can be translated as «person», «personality» or «individual».
(…)
A male must do military service.
A female must procreate children.
A person must pursue their (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_pronoun) goals.
A female must expect others to pay.
A male must pay.
A person must comprehend financial capacities and preferences of other people.
A female must obey.
A male must determine.
A person must be able to interact with other persons.
(…)
A female must be dumb and sexy.
A male must be strong and hairy.
A person must be whatever they prefer.
A female must chit-chat.
A male must listen.
A person must be able to socialize.
(…)
Females like flowers.
Males like beer.
Persons like what they like (and speak up about it).
Females pride themselves upon being females.
Males pride themselves upon being males.
Persons remain persons and do not think in stereotypes.
Be a Person.
I've picked the most critical parts, but I can translate the rest, if anyone's interested.
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It's sad that some women seem to think inappropriate behavior only happens to women and is always done by men. I've been to 8 major furry cons (and many many smaller furry events ) so far and I can not count the number of times i've been groped, squeezed or hugged by people I didn't know, or got sexual remarks or invitations from people I'm not particularly interested in. And YES some of them have been women! And i'm not alone in this. But men tend not to alert security when someone squeezes their butt (or worse).
I've been in the furry fandom since the late 90's, and it's always been a close-knit, touchy-feely community. And that's great! So sometimes someone doesn't know where to draw the line. Big deal. You tell 'em no and move on.
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The problem does not lie in saying no. I am perfectly capable of saying no without causing a fuss. I'm also perfectly capable of using my elbow to ram someone's ribs if no is not enough :-)
The problem lies in people going on when you say no. And I know a lot of people (girls and guys) who are afraid to go to Security because they're afraid they will be belittled and told "you should have been more clear" or to hear "well this community is just touchy-feely". That hasn't happened at EF as far as I know just to be clear, but I've encountered that attitude countless times at anime cons or sci-fi cons.
It's awesome this community runs on hugs, that's great. Doesn't mean it's OK to grab someone's breasts or butt. It's about having respect.
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I do really know, that there are situations (e.g. in you own life or whatever), where you are not able to say more as a single "No". And it have to be enough. So it's never a fault of the person who was harassed, it's the person who is harassing because the person didn't listen.
For myself, I was a victim a few years ago. So I think, I'm really able to rate a situation an can be very empathic or sensitive. So I can say with a clear conscience: If you have any problems with harassments, get in touch with me and we find a solution.
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The perfect opportunity to butt (har har) in for me!
I can't say it too often: We had and will always have a fair share of creeps on EF. This certainly does not only affect women, but also fursuiters, who are possibly perceived as "even more helpless", and therefore the perfect victim for (sexual) harassment.
Unfortunately, security on it's own can do next to nothing to prevent such issues, and only very little when such issues are reported. Nevertheless, please do always report harassment, if it's not a simple misunderstanding, or solved with a clear "bugger off, I do not want you near me". We always take such complaints seriously, and have a clear talk to the ones involved to make absolutely clear what is acceptable, social behaviour, and what is not. It's not hard to keep at least two arm's lengths distance to somebody, and "repeat offenders", whose names are dropped more often, get special attention from us.
Of course, we cannot outright ban anybody on a thin basis of "somebody said he was harassed". Some furries would totally use this as a weapon against people they don't like, and EF security will not be their drama executive force, period. Gotta walk a thin line here, so please don't be offended if our actions aren't immediately obvious to you. I assure you it's neither neglect, nor ignorance.
To sum it up: If you feel harassed, talk to security. This is escalated to Dhary or me, as we collect such reports during the convention, to find patterns. We will want to talk to you and the alleged offender, not necessarily together, to find a mutual agreement how both parties can continue to enjoy EF without stepping on each other's toes. Please do make sure, however, that you clearly told the offender to leave you alone, otherwise they WILL pull the "I didn't know! I'm soooo sorry!" card when confronted later, and we're screwed. Get a seccie to tell him once in clear words, if you don't feel comfortable yourself, but do it!
If you take anything with you from this posting, let it be this: Talk. To. Security. And get the name/registration id of the offender, if at all possible. Security will help with that, too. Don't wait three days, do it right. Now.
That being said, the *reports* we get are very, very limited, so we can only guess that EF is rather safe after all in this regard. But we do assume that our "Dunkelziffer" is rather high; Many victims don't tell us they felt uncomfortable, and sweep things under the rug. Don't be a victim. We want creeps not to be creepy as much as you do.
Always remember: You may handle a sexual assault well, but will your friends, too, if they;re next?
Thanks,
Gyro
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Well as for bringing more women and evening out the gender differances about a third of the people we`re bringing are female. I for one feel comfertable and safe bringing my little sister along. However as a guy I see a lot more guys hitting on me. Don`t get me wrong it`s nice that they like me, but when you pop out of nowhere and grab my ass don`t be offended if I smack your paw. If there`s a ring on that finger don`t tap it. I`ve seen my share of flirting towards women, especially if the have a cute outfit, but seldom any grabbing, like gay males tend to do. But all in all people tend to be respectfull, when I politely decline, and from what I`ve seen people in general are polite.
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Well....i would love to see more woman at EF, including ones who feel that they think not many other woman are there and most are guys because that would put them off from going...just get yourselves to the fur cons ladies and enjoy yourself! :3
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Cosplayer Nicole Jacobs On Harassment At Comic Cons… And What We Can All Do About It:
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/05/27/cosplayer-nicole-jacobs-on-harassment-at-comic-cons-and-what-we-can-all-do-about-it/
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The "only a dissapointingly small number of conventions have policies against harassment in place" statement is fortunately not true for almost all furry events, at least in Europe.
The security team and the Rules of Conduct for Eurofurence follow the European standard set by the MI:3 security network and show zero tolerance to any kind of harassment. Regardles of male or female, even verbal abuse is investigated and sanctioned harshly.
Our conventions and events are safe places for every attendee and we take pride in a sensible and emphatic security team.
Just remember the most important rule: if you have any question, concern or information for us, be it prior to or during the convention, do NOT hesitate to contact your security team. We gladly help you, even if you just want to know the time. :)
security@eurofurence.org
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I believe I have trouble understanding the central paragraph of this text ...
While the man’s badge was removed and he was escorted from the building, never once was I given the option to press charges against him. [...] If security is unresponsive and entirely fails to do their job, who are they really securing?
So, unless the BOD/Security actively refused to give her his name, or unless there was no way to get this name just from the removed badge as soon as the person had left, what exactly is it a non-unresponsive ,non-entirely-failing-to-do-their-job security should have done? What would EF's security do differently? (no details of course. I'm just trying to get what, other than "immediately banning and removing from the premises", "if he poses a threat, hand him to authorities", and "on request, support investigations by submitting ID details from badge/reg db" would be expected?)
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I believe I have trouble understanding the central paragraph of this text ...
While the man’s badge was removed and he was escorted from the building, never once was I given the option to press charges against him. [...] If security is unresponsive and entirely fails to do their job, who are they really securing?
So, unless the BOD/Security actively refused to give her his name, or unless there was no way to get this name just from the removed badge as soon as the person had left, what exactly is it a non-unresponsive ,non-entirely-failing-to-do-their-job security should have done?
I'm not sure if I understand your question correctly.
Convention Security is neither the police (who wouldn't have given the victim the name of the offender either, at least in Germany) nor a judge. However, she could have pressed criminal charges against John Doe and name convention security as witness or, in a civil case, have a lawyer subpoena the name from the convention. Even if the victim happens to know the name of the offender, I strongly recommend to go the juridical way, as publicly shaming someone without having a proof that stands up in court can backfire very badly in many countries.
What I'd recommend to the convention board (and yes, sexual assault is clearly something the board needs to be made aware of) is to support the victim, foremost by taking the complaint seriously, listening, and showing empathy. Secondly by helping her to involve the authorities.
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IARP volunteers handed out surveys to attendees at this year’s Furry Fiesta, held February 21 to 23 in Dallas, USA. 246 surveys were returned, out of 1884 total attendees. You can find the full results here (https://sites.google.com/site/anthropomorphicresearch/past-results/2014-furry-fiesta) - and if you don't feel like digging through the numbers, [adjective][species] offers an intersting summary and commentary. (http://adjectivespecies.com/2014/06/02/furry-women-at-furry-conventions/).
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I can't really agree with this article either. There will always be some creeps or weirdos at larger cons so it's not only supposed to happen at the EF or something. You just have to be careful when being out as a woman among a huge massive male dominated crowd. That's all. I certainly know how to protect and take care of myself and I didn't really had any bad experiences with male furs yet. I don't expect it to happen any time soon either. Of course it would be nice to run into some more other females during the convention but I'm also looking forward to celebrate and hang out with my male pals from all over :D
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Sorry for digging up this topic, I was just wondering about that EF Daily article.
It stated that all of the 12 women who were asked had experienced some kind of harrassment. What was counted as harrassment?
I know that some girls, especially the shy ones, are already bothered by lame flirting attempts. It makes them feel uncomfortable, so it could be counted as harrassment - although the same situation would not be a problem for others. And the flirting guy probably didn't mean to make annoy them.
Or, as another example - accidental touching. The lobby was quite crowded, so it might happen that someone walking by may touch you. Especially at night, when parts of the lobby were dimly lit and full of people, sometimes a fursuiter would nudge me. But I wouldn't claim they were actively trying to touch my butt, it's just the height their paws are at when they walk, and they probably didn't see me.
On the other hand, someone who feels insecure and fears to be touched may think they were intentionally touching everyone while walking by.
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What was counted as harrassment?
I was going to ask the same thing, because — pic related — http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/470/064/c12.jpg =)
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Personally I don't have experience with that yet but I heard it from others that some stuff happened to them or friends which is beyond a little bit flirting. (Also from guys, too btw..)
I don't know if my lack of experience might be because of the majority of my con visits I wasn't adult or if I'm just lucky or not "their type" but I wouldn't nullify the problem because it doesn't affect me.
On a con many people feel like in a very safe bubble, far away from everyday problems, everyday concerns, politics and so on and as far as I can tell this isn't completely wrong. I really felt safe at EF, even in this quarter of Berlin, as long as I wasn't alone there. However, sometimes we should remember that all attendees are more or less normal persons with a personality shaped by modern society. And if someone shows bad behaviour in the 361 other days of the year, they probably won't entirely stop because they are on the con. They might calm down, they might behave a little better because of less pressure on them but they won't swap around.
Additionally such an atmosphere can braven some people who are usually pretty shy and don't have much contact to other people in their everyday life. They flirt more, they try to contact someone and sometimes are a little bit inexperienced in that so their manners might result in creepier actions than planned.
For the people who do behave in an - in other people's eyes - impolite or abusing way it's sometimes unapparent. I couldn't even say for myself that I've never harmed anyone or made anyone feel uncomfortable with some of my actions. I'm not a creep but also far away from being a handy empathic everybody's darling, especially in the past at a younger age where this wasn't a topic at all.
Therefore I'm glad about articles like these. Even if you get angry about it, it makes you think about your behaviour and more sensitive to that topic. And the next person you might have abused unintentionally has the chance to become a good friend instead. :)
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Has this actually held you back? How were your actual experiences at furry conventions?
Sometimes I got hit on. But more guys were of the "nerd who doesn't know what to say" type, not creepy. A friendly, harmless kind of weirdo ;). And in case I had to tell someone to leave me alone because i didn't want to talk to them, they always stopped. I never got bothered any further after asking them to stop.
Any stories to tell?
Funniest story so far: My boyfriend was jealous of me going to a con with so many guys. Then he saw that noone was flirting with me, but someone slapped his butt while dancing (and I was the only girl around, and it was not me slapping him). That sounds kinda creepy, but it was more hilarious.
From those snipped out things... the first sounds quite familiar... I always feel that I have not much to add to any conversation or even start one... so... I stay silent and listen or watch. The watching was quite much what I could do anyway at my first EF (which would be EF20) as I was kinda overwhelmed.
The second thing is... what I would be a bit afraid about as heterosexual on a furry convention with such a high percentage of non-heterosexual males. Guess I am lucky that I am neither a suiter nor that good looking which would cut interest.
I am not even much of a hugging person, especially with strangers, so guess how I felt with only guys hugging me while a friend tried to introduce me to some people, which was kinda creepy. The few females he introduced to me briefly, did not hug... and as I am not the hugging type I not tried myself.
That's very easy to say. I'm not convinced it's that easy to act on, though. I've seen countless times that people speak about non-present other people "They don't get it, do they? They should really learn to XXX", but very rarely that they are contacted directly. I know I'm not - so either I'm a brilliant human being without flaws (yeah, sure :), or it's just part of our social culture to NOT speak to persons and just hope they "would get it" by repeating whatever (subtle) signs are agreed on by the majority, but actually never teached. Everyone expects them to "get it", to "learn it", but for those who genuinely are not aware of this coded language there is little help to learn it. Those who know, of course, will not see the issue, probably also disregard it altogether (I'm used to ad hominem attacks when I bring this topic up). So the actual descriptions of our female furries here what they experienced and considered creepy is quite helpful.
Yeah... IF I would have the courage and think I had a topic to talk (no, the weather is not a worthy topic in my opinion... I am bad with smalltalk) with someone (especially a female) I would have no clue about any signs, mostly even the less subtle. At least in my case, it would really help to tell me to stop (if I could muster the courage and topics to approach someone)
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I noticed much more female furs on the EF this year. Mad me feel really comfortable :)
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i dont agree with the article either..
the reason im going to EF21 is to meet some of the great people in this fantastic fandom, male or female.
and i cant meet new people if i can't introduce myself to them whether they are male or female.
yes i am a straight and single male, but i have been single for around 20 years of my own choice (long story)
so i'm only looking to meet interresting new (hopefully) friends.
why does some males get so frustrated or needy, that they start stalking or grabbing women??
when i meet a girl/woman that i would like to get to know as a friend, i dont "assault" them but instead introduce myself as a gentleman and wait to see if they respond kindly to my introduction.
if yes we can talk and get to know each other and hopefully become friends.
if no i will excuse myself and leave her alone. the same goes for men as well.
since i am not looking for sex or an girlfriend this topic can almost scare me of meeting the female furs.
as i dont want to be mistaken for a creap.
so i hope to meet you all, and have a lot of fun and new friends.
gummibjorn.
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A big problem is that lots of people think they know what the con experience for women is like and what women should do.
I don't, and if you're a guy, neither do you. So the best way to find out is actually asking and listening.
Also, what doesn't help is saying "Hey look at this girl on Tumblr wildly exaggerating, I guess all women are exaggerating about negative experiences"
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I guess reflecting on your behavior, comes a long way.
"Treat others like you want to be treated."
And if it goes a bit deeper try this one:
"Be the type of person you want your son/daughter to date with."
Subtext: Looking at yourself in the mirror and being able to grasp how others perceive you is tough (for many). It might be easier if you think of the other person to be your offspring and the relation that is going on is intimate. That might help reflect on what you think is acceptable behavior.
Laws and rules are their because someone went WAY over a certain unspoken line. So what some perceive as normal behavior because for example: this is how they treat their close friends, they have seen this (on TV) or maybe even have these wild fantasies (driven by heroic 007 / romanticized 'easy' pickups ) they have seen and have accept as 'how things actually could go'.
These might be a real turn off within the social norm in any relation ship, even just friendship.
That said many that are confronted with rules or other implications might feel overwhelmed and quickly grab to the notion that it's like 'walking a fine line'.
While in reality, it often isn't. Their are a wild range of goofy, funny and even dumb things you can do intentionally and unintentionally that will not offend people. We love fursuiters that do stuff like: steal your drink and keep it away from you, bypass a row and start interacting with security or dive right in to the dealers den, come up all close and interact with you just cm's/inches away from you.
Those are a lot of things that normal people really do not feel comfortable with or even find offensive. But that context makes it acceptable.
We enjoy fursuiters for their (in a lot of cases) goofy and entertaining behavior. It comes down to understanding these unwritten rules and feel them, they are not really hard, but abstract, you can not make a definitive list of things you can and can not do. Because they also change with the setting, context, passing of time and culture differences.
Bottom line in my opinion is that you have to be just. If you act out of good faith, take responsibility for your actions (even if you are 'mildly' intoxicated) then many things that could have ended in a very embarrassing and (emotional) painful situation. Can be resolved with a well meant sorry with an explanation why you thought it was the way to go. And hear the other side, why they perceive it differently / as an attack on their private space / attack on their own person.
And learn from them. Even after that you might disagree, but at least you have shown respect for someone else's view on the matter and their very personal subjugation of what happened. You can not change the fact that X happened to person Y because you choose to do that, even if you honestly meant no harm or view said thing as acceptable.
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I noticed much more female furs on the EF this year. Mad me feel really comfortable :)
add one more to the list :) nice reading material for a 1st joiner :)