The Eurofurence Forum
Eurofurence Information => Feedback => Topic started by: Lightfox on 28.08.2014, 21:21:42
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Hey! So in this topic, i would like to put into light one problem that i felt was too present in some areas of the hotel: cigarette smoke!
I know many furs are smokers (and it's their right), but this year I had a bigger problem with it: beyond the fact that the hotel's main entrance is totally unreachable in suit if you don't want to end up with a stinking smell in your fur (like every year, but i can live with it, people have to smoke *somewhere*), there were other areas where the problem existed:
- In front of the secondary dancefloor (where 80's dance and dead dog party took place), the door were permanently opened, and smoke kept pouring inside the building. This was was really annoying, since:
- The fursuit lounge was nearby. (and even closer for the dead dog party)
- The area was next the rooms with dances: one had to go through there to/from the dancefloor, and it's not really pleasant to smell cigarette smoke as soon as you try to take a breather.
- The balcony next to the fursuit lounge also sometimes had smokers, and this is the most unacceptable place in the con to smoke imho.
Just as out of courtesy for fursuiters who do care about the smell on their fursuit, my suggestions would be:
- Forbidding smoking anywhere near the fursuit lounge, especially its balcony.
- At the very least closing the doors of the building to prevent smoke from entering
- Asking people who smoke to gather only in specific areas, e.g. the front of the hotel's entrance. (I don't have high hopes about this one)
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Had the issue myself waiting for the pawpet show with people smoking in and next to the queue- you really can't move away from it there, and if I left the queue, then I've lost my space. Also the group photo, which I did in fursuit- while waiting for the photo I had to take my head off, which I don't really like doing in public, because people smoking around me which was filling up the inside of my fursuit head- which isn't pleasant.
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You explain it with all the corect words! That will be nice for next year, I will apreciate it too as a fursuiter!
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A quick question from one nonsmoking Fur to the others: How about these electric Smokes? I can handle these much better because the smell is way more less heavy than the cigarette one and vanishes more quickly (anyway i can understand that people still have a problem with a smoker right next to them).
Lets face it, it isn't a problem with the Hotel or Conops in my onion, but again people shutting down their brains. To my knowledge the whole Hotel was a smoke free Zone, so the smoking is only allowed outside the building. Here starts the problem: for me personally the Hotelzone should include the entrance too so Fursuiters and nonsmokers can wave at cabs and socialize in "fresh" air. On the other hand, banning peoples that i like from the entrance because they smoke is something i wouldn't like. And I think this is exactly the point where good meanings clashes each others!
If I where a smoker, i didn't would go down the stairs as well, because it feels getting cut of from all the fun, but need to smoke too on one side on the other one the "I don't want to annoy everyone" feeling.
My suggestion would be following: as there are at least three entrances to the hotel, open at least one for the smokers so they can smoke there and aren't that cut of from the fun, but also make it clear (and force it when one again sits on his ears) that smoking is only allowed there PLUS that these Door will lead you right into this Zone, so Suiters could avoid it.
As for the smaller Dance Stage: i think it where because of the Foggenerator thingy and i simply hope that this will change when we get other or bigger Sig rooms.
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Well, the hotel HAS a smoker lounge at the -1 floor. When you go down the wide stairs in the lobby and then turn left. But it was closed due to renovation. So I'm sure next year it will be open again.
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It was bad timing that the smoker's lounge was closed for repairs. I am sure the situation will improve once we have that location in place.
I usually don't mind smokers outdoors, because I can avoid them. This isn't true for situations like queuing. It should be emphasized that there is absolutely no smoking while you are standing in a queue, no matter if indoors or outdoors. Because the people next to you can't just move out of the way without giving up their spot. Also it should be avoided to let any queue go past a space that pretty much is the smoking area of the con.
I never had any issues with e-cigarettes. There is only a faint smell and that is usually a pleasant one to me - like a friend of mine using woodruff liquid in his vaporizer. Personally, I'd like to see more smokers switch to those - at the very least for the time they attend public events. Makes it much more enjoyable to hang around my smoking friends. ;)
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Since we were not the only guests at the hotel, rules about smoking or non-smoking areas cannot be easily changed. But I do agree, that people should be a little bit more respectful and take it a few steps further away from the entrance area. Maybe a smoker reading this might be so kind next year. :-)
Best wishes,
Token
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As a smoker i would like to put my own opinion here, every time i went outside for a smoke in the designated smoking area it was always filled with suiters and non smokers, so i had to stand at either side of the entrance so i didn't accidentally burn any suiter and that i was out the way of them so i couldn't be blamed for making there suits smell even if people was still smoking right next to them, us smokers have really little choice on where we can smoke and I do appreciate people who don't smoke you don't want us around you, but you can easily sit inside with that beer, you can easily move somewhere with more room for you to relax in, us smokers do not have this privilege we are herded into small areas with some not having a roof or somewhere to sit and relax and for once it was nice to have a big area to smoke in which was undercover, but even when we smoke were we should we still get moaned at for this and its not just at a con its everywhere.
smokers are given a small area to smoke in, we have to adapt and move around, so if we have to adapt to what we are given surely you can too by using another gathering area? yes ok its the main entrance and its the best place to meet up with friends but its still the designated smoking area, non smokers have a massive hotel to gather in and relax and move about we are given two places in which we can use yet you want us to go elsewhere.
As for next year i do hope the smoking lounge is open so we can go in there, but as for the main entrance by the stairs this will always be a smoking area so if your in suit and you don't want to smell of smoke please don't hang around this area especially as the road is well used and suiters are really dangerous and same for the other one by the doors near where the dead dog party is, but to improve on what has happened this year we can ask for the doors down the bottom to be kept closed and not wedged open like they were to stop the smoke drifting in, as for the fursuit lounge the balcony is another smoking area but i don't know if there was any rules saying if it can be used as such, this area is ideal for suiters who smoke so they don't have to get dressed to go outside and then come back in, maby next year if the lounge is in the same place we could as the fursuit team to only keep one door open but with a fan pointing outwards to stop the blow back from the smoke?
Anyway this is my personal rant about it.
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Since we were not the only guests at the hotel, rules about smoking or non-smoking areas cannot be easily changed. But I do agree, that people should be a little bit more respectful and take it a few steps further away from the entrance area. Maybe a smoker reading this might be so kind next year. :-)
Best wishes,
Token
Hopefully next year, we will have the hotel 100%, and we will be the only guests at the hotel?
I can hope!
Anyway, I really find it annoying when people use e-cigs in non-smoking areas. The e-cig still produces smoke that still causes problem for asthmatics like me and should not be used anywhere that smoking generally isn't allowed. Especially the rude people who blow smoke in other people's face.
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Technically, e-cig produce steam.
The same thing you inhale when leaning over a cup of tea, or inside your shower.
It isn't smoke *per se*.
I'm a 120% non smoker and i rather indeed have all people smoke e-cigs than regular cigarettes..
More than once i thought "eh it smells good in here" and looked for a source of it... to find a e-smoker not too far...
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Technically, e-cig produce steam.
theoretically yes
practically some e-cig I have seen produce more than just steam, seeing the massive smoke produced, more thick than it should be and not disappearing as quickly as it should, maybe because of some weird mix people put into it :/
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[...] but even when we smoke were we should we still get moaned at for this and its not just at a con its everywhere.
You say this like it's unfair. Do you really need to be reminded why it's not? Every smoker has heard it a millions times already.
[...]smokers are given a small area to smoke in, we have to adapt and move around, so if we have to adapt to what we are given surely you can too by using another gathering area? yes ok its the main entrance and its the best place to meet up with friends but its still the designated smoking area, non smokers have a massive hotel to gather in and relax and move about we are given two places in which we can use yet you want us to go elsewhere.
As far as I'm concerned, even though it annoys me (both in and out of suit really), sacrificing the main entrance to smoker is something i'm completely okay with. They have to smoke *somewhere*.
[...] for the other one by the doors near where the dead dog party is, but to improve on what has happened this year we can ask for the doors down the bottom to be kept closed and not wedged open like they were to stop the smoke drifting in [...]
I don't really ask for more than this, really. But i'm not sure that would be enough to prevent the smoke from getting in, unless the doors are permanently sealed (since just entering and leaving a smoked area will always let some smoke in), which probably won't happen.
[...]as for the fursuit lounge the balcony is another smoking area but i don't know if there was any rules saying if it can be used as such, this area is ideal for suiters who smoke so they don't have to get dressed to go outside and then come back in, maby next year if the lounge is in the same place we could as the fursuit team to only keep one door open but with a fan pointing outwards to stop the blow back from the smoke?
I'll admit it was only a problem if you stepped outside, i was never bothered by smoke directly inside the fursuit lounge. But I don't like to have the risk of having smoke that can potentially enter the lounge at any time because some people don't care.
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I had 2 cigarette hole in my fursuit :|
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About e-cigarettes:
The liquid that is vaporized in an e-cig is a mixture of propyleneglycol, glycerine and water. Additionally, there are flavorings and nicotine. The base liquid is very much comparable to the fluid used in the smoke machines which are used on the stage, and at the dances. These fluids are often flavoured as well, so the only difference in the end is the nicotine content. The same base ingredients (Propyleneglycol, Glycerine, Water) are also used in medical inhalers to treat lung diseases like asthma and bronchitis. So, in general it can be said that if you don't react to disco fog, you shouldn't react to e-cig smoke as well. There is still a very slight chance that you'd react to the specific flavoring used, but you run the same risk when you eat ice cream - all flavours used in e-cig liquid are food grade, and are also used by the food industry. I'd also like to point out that any residue left behind by the fog on surfaces (such as a piece of synthetic fur, for example) are water-soluble and will wash out easily with cold water.
I summarize: E-cigs are basically miniaturized disco fog machines that also may contain nicotine. They use materials that have been proven to be harmless for human consumption. They do NOT produce any kind of smoke whatsoever, they produce vapor and fog.
-Aki
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About e-cigarettes:
The liquid that is vaporized in an e-cig is a mixture of propyleneglycol, glycerine and water. Additionally, there are flavorings and nicotine. The base liquid is very much comparable to the fluid used in the smoke machines which are used on the stage, and at the dances. These fluids are often flavoured as well, so the only difference in the end is the nicotine content. The same base ingredients (Propyleneglycol, Glycerine, Water) are also used in medical inhalers to treat lung diseases like asthma and bronchitis. So, in general it can be said that if you don't react to disco fog, you shouldn't react to e-cig smoke as well. There is still a very slight chance that you'd react to the specific flavoring used, but you run the same risk when you eat ice cream - all flavours used in e-cig liquid are food grade, and are also used by the food industry. I'd also like to point out that any residue left behind by the fog on surfaces (such as a piece of synthetic fur, for example) are water-soluble and will wash out easily with cold water.
I summarize: E-cigs are basically miniaturized disco fog machines that also may contain nicotine. They use materials that have been proven to be harmless for human consumption. They do NOT produce any kind of smoke whatsoever, they produce vapor and fog.
-Aki
Addition: If the owner isn't stupid enough to buy his liquids from some shady internet shop or (yes, happens a lot lately) mixes the stuff himself, putting godknowswhat in it. Yes, I hate smokers and I very much dislike e-cigs as well, but in direct comparison the e-cigs are obviously the better choice. Still personally I'd feel like a invalid running around with an inhaler. :3
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I had 2 cigarette hole in my fursuit :|
That's unacceptable, I'm very sorry that has happened to you! I hope you have some patches of similar fur to repair it?
By the way, I very much agree with the OP above. I don't think it would be good to close the hotel doors though, as there is already not much fresh air in the lobby. Having the smoker's lounge open next year should help, one can't really blame the smokers if they're outside and don't really have another place to go. Maybe several outdoor areas can be assigned where it's definitely ok to smoke, and others where it's definitely NOT ok (like outside of the fursuit lounge).
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That's unacceptable, I'm very sorry that has happened to you! I hope you have some patches of similar fur to repair it?
yep, I'm fixing it
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Personally I really don't like people smoking in front of an entrance as it forces me to pass them whatever I do but next to it is totally fine for me. There is loads of space between the two most used entrances which could be made into a smoking zone outside with cover from the rain. It's just a bother that as suiter if you want to go outside you are forced to pass smokers which is the big issue here and should be dealt with. If we go sidewards towards smokers then it's totally our own responsability but please don't smoke right in front of an entrance. Much apreciated! :)
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Yes, I hate smokers
Well, good to know there's no shortage of hatred at EF, mr. Chief of Security. Should we be alarmed?
All the smoking at EF was done in designated smoking areas, right next to the ashtrays that the hotel put there. I'm not sure what we're expected to do. Would be nice not to be treated like a leper though. I'm sure the other 300 or 400 smokers at EF would agree.
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Well here we go again;
As a smoker (and fursuiter), I know both sides of the story.
Here my opinion:
From fursuiters view:
- I know where the smoker spots are, so I tend to avoid them or atleast watch out where I walk and with whom I am with; I want to avoid burnholes but it can happen, as it is part of the risk you take as you go outside near the spots that are marked as "smoker spots"
- When I want to go for fresh air without that risk, I go to the fursuit lounge with enough ventilators to kill my high body temperature
- I hate smokers aswell who stand right next to the door but sometimes they do it to protect other fursuiters who are standing right in the middle of the so called "smokers area"
My view as a smoker:
- I dont know a single smoker that's not extra precausios when it comes to cigarettes and fur; I always keep my hand "over" my cigarette as if its raining and tend to make sure suiters aren't able to jump into me since I dont wanna damage their suit
- We already have such a tiny area near the hotel where we can smoke without being hoisted away every 5minutes cuz of cabs
- We already stay near ashtrays as that is "our place"
- About 60-75% of the furs I saw smoking used the ashtrays to not harm suiters feet. so yes we do care
- Smoking in line sucks balls as it makes us uncomfortable aswell, but since sometimes waiting time was 1hour+ delayed, and most of us wouldnt wanna leave our spot...
I could go on for ages. Yes I know both sides, yes I know fursuits are hot as fuck and that the hotel lobby wasn't well ventilated (hell, I was walking around in a tshirt and shorts in there just fine, but when I walked outside it was plainely cold). But we're already a scapegoat, we have these few spots for over 400 furs (easily) to stand in, which are obviously assigned to smoke in as there were 8 ashtrays alone.
I can't deny fursuiters from there, just as much you can't deny us from smoking at that certain area... All you can ask from "us" is that we be carefull around fursuiters, which we are as much as possible (or atleast I, and my friends, are).
Plus, if you dont want your suit to get wet, you shouldnt go outside when it's raining; same for suits that smell like smoke (which is easily killed with some fibrese); when you dont want your suits to smell like smoke, dont go near smoker area's or the campfire.
But yes, you could go for a no-smoking in lines, as that is a place where people don't choose to be near smoke, but you cant ask a smoker to give up his place entirely just so he can have a cigerette cuz of delays. Then non-smokers should be nice enough to keep that certain spot for this person, or don't complain about the smell tbh... I would do the same for someone that needs to go to the toilet or get something to drink.
Ofcourse you can ask people to not smoke at a certain door, but you can only ask I guess and not forbid...
Cuz in this way I feel less and less welcome at Eurofurence and that only because I like my cigarette every once and a while... People who take glass outside (and dont take it back inside) are more likely to hurt a suiter (tail sweeping glass from a certain area, breaks, certain liquides inside on fur, sugary goop... not nice) or the candles in the lobby (tail swoops table, candle falls over, wax in fur; fursuit ruined)
So I don't know, in my opinion, if you're really bothered with it check out the other opportunities, as you guys have more of them then we do (as we only got outside), but yes smoking near an entrance/exit; not really cool, unless they take into consideration that there are 5fursuiters in a very tight space and they feel pressured to do so indirectly cuz of these kind of discussions.
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Yes, I hate smokers
Well, good to know there's no shortage of hatred at EF, mr. Chief of Security. Should we be alarmed?
That was neither warranted nor useful....
I hate smokers sometimes, and I /am/ a smoker. as Aysel said there are some who could do with being more courteous on both sides, us smokers meet to try and not stand in front of the doors, in the same way that people should expect smokers to congregate near ash trays.
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That was neither warranted nor useful....
I would have reacted differently if it had been a statement like "I hate smokers who behave like assholes", instead of just boldly stating to hate all smokers.
However, you are right in saying it's not constructive, and I apologise for overreacting in that regard.