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Eurofurence Information => Feedback => Topic started by: Tinka on 02.09.2014, 22:18:44

Title: EF20 Art Show feedback for artists
Post by: Tinka on 02.09.2014, 22:18:44
I've now bought a few items from both EF19 and EF20 Art Show auctions and have a few things to say to artists..

Generally I don't like buying prints, even limited ones. I know digital art needs to be printed anyway so for digital artists its a bummer - but its just not very nice buying an expensive 'limited print 1/1' of size A or on material B - when next year the same artist puts the same art up on the auction again in a different size or format. Might as well buy the poster of it for 10 eur next year ;3

Original traditional art has that exclusive feeling to it and the personal connection that you get to have the actual piece of canvas or material and ink that the artist has held in his or hands. Prints just don't have that feeling. And even if you see the art somewhere printed you know that you have the original :3

Frame your art nicely. Piece of paper without a frame looks really bad on the auction wall - whereas a good frame with the right color and right spacing can actually become part of the artwork by accentuating the piece (and a terrible frame ruin its look) >:3

I buy the art for the art - not the frame. BUT and this is a big but - if you want to appreciate your buyers, make them love you and come back for more next year - it helps a lot when the art I've bought has a frame I can actually hang from my wall - maybe for years. If its substandard I have to go through the bother and expense of re-framing the piece.

A good frame with a glass will protect your art when I transport it in my luggage back home - but if you are bringing art to the auction in your own packaging then please, please leave the packaging at the auction so that buyer can re-wrap it. Especially for larger pieces.

Thank you :3
Title: Re: EF20 Art Show feedback for artists
Post by: Fafnir Kristensen on 02.09.2014, 23:02:10
that would be ok if people realized how much a nice frame cost. sometime the starting bid value doesnt even cover the cost of the frame (the usual incentive undervalued starting bid problem) and seeing the art they did go away for a misery certainly doesnt motivate them to put nice costly frame
Title: Re: EF20 Art Show feedback for artists
Post by: Schorse on 02.09.2014, 23:03:26
I was about to write the same about the prints. And it makes me wonder why some of them go for enormous amounts of money, because it's "only" a better quality poster.
Title: Re: EF20 Art Show feedback for artists
Post by: Fafnir Kristensen on 02.09.2014, 23:06:29
I was about to write the same about the prints. And it makes me wonder why some of them go for enormous amounts of money, because it's "only" a better quality poster.

depends how it was printed.

if it's the usual print on caneva, then yes Im not really interested, especially if it is 1 of 5 or whatever number greater than 1.

but when it's, for example, printed on glass (for example Alector's two print this year) or metal or things like that, then it is more interesting
Title: Re: EF20 Art Show feedback for artists
Post by: Cheetah on 03.09.2014, 11:10:09
I was about to write the same about the prints. And it makes me wonder why some of them go for enormous amounts of money, because it's "only" a better quality poster.

In an auction situation, a lot of social factors come into play - that's why prices are so unpredictable, and only very loosely related to objective qualities. Personal preferences, bidder competition, perceived scarcity - it often does not always make any objective sense at all. It has a big game aspect to it.
Title: Re: EF20 Art Show feedback for artists
Post by: Korrok on 03.09.2014, 11:54:08
I've now bought a few items from both EF19 and EF20 Art Show auctions and have a few things to say to artists..

Generally I don't like buying prints, even limited ones. I know digital art needs to be printed anyway so for digital artists its a bummer - but its just not very nice buying an expensive 'limited print 1/1' of size A or on material B - when next year the same artist puts the same art up on the auction again in a different size or format. Might as well buy the poster of it for 10 eur next year ;3

Original traditional art has that exclusive feeling to it and the personal connection that you get to have the actual piece of canvas or material and ink that the artist has held in his or hands. Prints just don't have that feeling. And even if you see the art somewhere printed you know that you have the original :3

Frame your art nicely. Piece of paper without a frame looks really bad on the auction wall - whereas a good frame with the right color and right spacing can actually become part of the artwork by accentuating the piece (and a terrible frame ruin its look) >:3

I buy the art for the art - not the frame. BUT and this is a big but - if you want to appreciate your buyers, make them love you and come back for more next year - it helps a lot when the art I've bought has a frame I can actually hang from my wall - maybe for years. If its substandard I have to go through the bother and expense of re-framing the piece.

A good frame with a glass will protect your art when I transport it in my luggage back home - but if you are bringing art to the auction in your own packaging then please, please leave the packaging at the auction so that buyer can re-wrap it. Especially for larger pieces.

Thank you :3

Using an expensive/high quality frame, as others pointed out, is not a terribly good option for artists because furry art sells for generally so little. If we have to spend 20 euro on a frame and start the art at 40 euro just to be competitive, it's a bit pointless.

Personally for the last couple of cons I've put all my frames in decent quality mats (passepartout), in an acetate bag for transport. The mats are cut to easily available frame sizes e.g. 30x40cm which allows you to then go ahead and purchase a frame that you like at your own budget point, and all you need to do is drop the matted artwork in.
Title: Re: EF20 Art Show feedback for artists
Post by: Cheetah on 03.09.2014, 12:28:41
I've been to a lot of convention art shows, I've organized a dew, and I used to share my home with an artist for a while. Unless you happen to be a fandom legend whose pieces basically have a guarantee of selling out within minutes, my personal advice would be to ALWAYS set the minimum bid that it covers the material costs. If that raises the hurdle so much that you don't get any bids at all, you have three options: 

a) Make your art more attractive
b) Make your art more scarce (Put up fewer pieces or grow your customer base.)
c) Reduce Material Costs

Or all of the above. But never sell your artwork below production value - ideally not even below market value - just to make a sale. It's not worth it. Better take a piece home than selling it at a loss.
Title: Re: EF20 Art Show feedback for artists
Post by: SiranaJHelena on 03.09.2014, 22:54:08
Hi,

I'm an artist and I'm working both digital and traditional for many years now.
Please don't read this post as an aggressive reaction. I'd like to share my point of view and experiences with you to give you an insight about the position of an artist. (Although I sure don't speak for all artists.)

I understand why people are still having the idea that digital art is less worth than traditional. Computers in general were created to simplify work, to create stuff more easily and to storage and copy large ammounts of information. Computers make things easier, so painting with them must be easier, too, right? No mess with color blotches on the clothing, no need to buy tons of new colors and many tools in graphic programs you would need many different brushes for in traditional artwork. Also you can correct stuff as often as you want without damaging the paper or accidently mixing colors. So, not such a big deal, right?

No. ;)

When I started drawing digital more often, around 1-2 years ago, I felt like being in the kindergarden again, having huge thick color pencils and nearly no motoric skills. It was a completely new medium just like painting with acryl in comparison with pencil artwork. It took a while to handle the tool itself, not to mention the time I needed to make something which looked good.
Everything works completely different, from mixing colors to making clean outlines. Sure, the basic anatomy you know, the theory behind your motives, color contrast and all this stays the same but that's it. You also have to manage new problems you don't have with traditional methods.

Additionally, the program still doesn't do your work. Planing the motive, working with different perspectives, research for information about anatomy, choosing the right colors,.. you can't just skip that by telling the program what you'd like to have.

For EF20 I planned to make three pictures fitting to the CSI topic. All of them digital. None of them were ready in time because I underrated the problems I would have to deal with, based both of the perspective/motive and the digital tools. Especially one large picture took me already way more time with the preparation, sketches and the outlines than any completed traditional artwork before. And it's not even ready yet.

Digital art is a lot of work you just don't see when the picture is done. It means also many costs with expensive programs, graphic tablets, a fast computer, printing fees and so on.
But more important: Digital art is medium just like colored pencils, water color, pencils or oil is. It has as many advantages and disadvantages like the others and it is hard to learn drawing with it like it is with every new medium.
And most important: The quality of the picture depends on the artist, not the tool.


Of course, digital art can easily be reproduced and I myself don't like the idea of selling dozens of prints in nearly the same quality and size as the "original" limited prints which were sold for much more money. (That's why I wouldn't do this.) But with this thinking that digital art is not so much worth like traditional I wouldn't wonder if people wouldn't want to reward a digital picture the same way, so the artist tries to get at least an equal ammount of money by selling it e.g. 3 times than just one. (Don't have a proof for that though as I just started selling digital art and can't really compare it. Also I can't look into other artist's heads. ;) )

I hope this little very long post helps you to understand what it means to draw and sell digital artwork. :)



Oh, and about that frames: One of the EF20 pictures was planned to use a special frame aside from the typical photo formats. I looked after it in around 6-8 different shops of different price ranges.
1) Ikea had one: 6 Euro
2) A special story for frames had one: 30 Euro
3) No other shop had it.

I hate the one from Ikea because it's so thick but I doubt anyone would have payed me 30 Euro + the actuall worth of the picture inside. Maybe 30 for the complete package. So I have to go with the Ikea product now, although it's not as pretty and high quality ad the professional one.

There are many nice frames for a low price which don't make your pictures ugly as hell and I recommend rather using these ones instead of some cheap glass-only frame. It won't look really individual though if you don't paint it other, decorate it or whatever.
Title: Re: EF20 Art Show feedback for artists
Post by: Bezel on 04.09.2014, 19:39:45
I loved the art show this year - such an array of talent ! I managed to rack up quite an impressive bill in the auction - my bank hates me ;D

Anyway, two quick points to bring up...

Firstly - size. Please remember that many people will be flying home and have to get the artwork into their bags. There may be a wonderful, original, one of a kind, massively detailed, perfectly balanced, never-to-be-repeated piece, but if I can't get it into my suitcase, I can't bid on it.

Secondly - please, never use glass in a frame. If you're transporting it by car, it's fine, but for those of us from further abroad, I personally don't want to have to be picking shards of glass out of my socks for the next week (let alone the damage that could be caused to the artwork itself) if the worst happened at the airport. Many plastics are perfectly good substitutes - and if I really want glass, I can always get a piece of glass cut to size at minimal cost).

I suspect these points aren't normally a problem as EF draws people from far and wide, many of whom won't be flying - I just thought I'd mention them on behalf of those of us who do :)

Keep those brushes and styluses (styli ?) whizzing - you're all awesome ! :D
Title: Re: EF20 Art Show feedback for artists
Post by: SiranaJHelena on 04.09.2014, 20:09:05
Thanks for your critique. May I ask what size would fit in your suitcase? In my hole life I traveled by plane 3 times if you count both directions as one, so I really don't know what's common. My pictures are rather small but I'd like to do larger ones next year. :)

To the frames: I don't like transporting frames with glass, too, but it is of course a common way to present art in some kind of gallery. Usually I use a lot of bubble wrap but remembering how rude some people on the airport are handeling the suitcases I would worry about that, too. Unfortunately I can't really think of an alternative.
Would it be a compromise if I'd offer some mailing tubes for the pictures which don't get hurt when you roll them a little, so you don't have to use the frame at all?
Title: Re: EF20 Art Show feedback for artists
Post by: Fafnir Kristensen on 04.09.2014, 23:18:50
I loved the art show this year - such an array of talent ! I managed to rack up quite an impressive bill in the auction - my bank hates me ;D

Anyway, two quick points to bring up...

Firstly - size. Please remember that many people will be flying home and have to get the artwork into their bags. There may be a wonderful, original, one of a kind, massively detailed, perfectly balanced, never-to-be-repeated piece, but if I can't get it into my suitcase, I can't bid on it.

Secondly - please, never use glass in a frame. If you're transporting it by car, it's fine, but for those of us from further abroad, I personally don't want to have to be picking shards of glass out of my socks for the next week (let alone the damage that could be caused to the artwork itself) if the worst happened at the airport. Many plastics are perfectly good substitutes - and if I really want glass, I can always get a piece of glass cut to size at minimal cost).

I suspect these points aren't normally a problem as EF draws people from far and wide, many of whom won't be flying - I just thought I'd mention them on behalf of those of us who do :)

Keep those brushes and styluses (styli ?) whizzing - you're all awesome ! :D

err, what? artists should do small pieces because you cant fit it in your luggage?
the fuck, seriously, get real. if the art is too large, bad luck to you, really.

and if you see a piece you really want and you cant take it with you, seek someone else traveling by car who goes to the same area than you (plenty of people traveling by car from pretty much any european country) or get a package at a post office, wrap in bubblewrap and ship as fragile, of course it's not free, but it's doable...

beside, glass is not a problem if you correctly wrap the frame and, of course, have a rigid luggage.

Title: Re: EF20 Art Show feedback for artists
Post by: Bezel on 05.09.2014, 09:52:31
err, what? artists should do small pieces because you cant fit it in your luggage?
the fuck, seriously, get real. if the art is too large, bad luck to you, really.

and if you see a piece you really want and you cant take it with you, seek someone else traveling by car who goes to the same area than you (plenty of people traveling by car from pretty much any european country) or get a package at a post office, wrap in bubblewrap and ship as fragile, of course it's not free, but it's doable...

beside, glass is not a problem if you correctly wrap the frame and, of course, have a rigid luggage.



No, I think you've misunderstood my post. At no point did I request artists should change the size of their art - that's a decision entirely for them to make, and suggesting they should all "do small pieces so I can get them in my luggage" is both stupid and conceited - my apologies to you if you misunderstood this. The point I was trying to make was that size is a limiting factor for many travellers and that large pieces are therefore being aimed at an inherently smaller market of potential buyers.

As regards getting a friend with a car to take it - sure - if they're willing, if they have space and if you live anywhere near them. However those from, say, the USA or Australia may have a problem finding someone with a car who can drive it back for them ;) Based on previous experience, I'd personally (note - I say personally !) be highly reluctant to ship anything fragile and valuable by post.

Glass might not be a problem if you have the space to multi-wrap it in something that can cushion it - however, plastic requires less cushioning and is inherently safer for transport.
Title: Re: EF20 Art Show feedback for artists
Post by: Cheetah on 05.09.2014, 11:32:12
the fuck, seriously, get real. if the art is too large, bad luck to you, really.

Moderator warning: Please watch your wording, and stay polite.
Title: Re: EF20 Art Show feedback for artists
Post by: Cairyn on 05.09.2014, 12:23:19
Large format art is generally an issue for overseas buyers / plane travelling. Not just glass frames (although these are the most problematic since broken glass may destroy other items in your luggage), but also large canvas prints (may come apart when twisted), wooden frames even without glass, perhaps even those heavy alu-dibond prints. But ultimately that is something the buyer has to live with, and to take into account when buying.

If the frame is not essential for the presentation of the art, it may be wisest to leave it behind and transport the art in a cardboard roll, completely reframing it at home. It may also be possible to take apart a frame, leaving only the glass part behind, for transportation. (Measure the glass exactly for getting a perfect match at home.) Hardshell cases are recommendable in any case. There are options, even if they may not be cheap.

The Art Show has the option for artists to leave the packaging for the buyer, however, this is not an obligation, nor is this packaging guaranteed to be stable enough for airplane manhandling.
Title: Re: EF20 Art Show feedback for artists
Post by: Fafnir Kristensen on 05.09.2014, 14:49:00
sorry, I overreacted  :-\
Title: Re: EF20 Art Show feedback for artists
Post by: Schorse on 06.09.2014, 12:44:47
@SiranaJHelena:

I don't think of digital artwork being cheap and easy at all. Of course it is the same hard work as doing a traditional painting.
But the feeling of the beholder is different. If I hang up a large high quality print, most people will say: "Oh, you've got a nice poster there." But if I hang up a piece of traditional artwork, they'll say: "That's some nice art you have there."
The really downside for me (personaly) is the lack of the unique feeling. Even when it's a single print, you know the artist could make more anytime and they'd be all exact the same. A traditional artwork is always unique. You can draw it a second time, but there will be slight differences. I don't know how to explain it, but that feels way more better (to me).
You can compare it to music. Having a record to listen to is nice. But being at a live concert is so much different.

Again, I didn't want to put you down. I always appreciate the hard work of an artist, no matter how it's been done.
Title: Re: EF20 Art Show feedback for artists
Post by: Fafnir Kristensen on 06.09.2014, 15:13:30
@SiranaJHelena:

I don't think of digital artwork being cheap and easy at all. Of course it is the same hard work as doing a traditional painting.
But the feeling of the beholder is different. If I hang up a large high quality print, most people will say: "Oh, you've got a nice poster there." But if I hang up a piece of traditional artwork, they'll say: "That's some nice art you have there."
The really downside for me (personaly) is the lack of the unique feeling. Even when it's a single print, you know the artist could make more anytime and they'd be all exact the same. A traditional artwork is always unique. You can draw it a second time, but there will be slight differences. I don't know how to explain it, but that feels way more better (to me).
You can compare it to music. Having a record to listen to is nice. But being at a live concert is so much different.

Again, I didn't want to put you down. I always appreciate the hard work of an artist, no matter how it's been done.

put the print in a frame, nobody will notice it's not traditional unless they look close :D
Title: Re: EF20 Art Show feedback for artists
Post by: Korrok on 06.09.2014, 23:17:03
err, what? artists should do small pieces because you cant fit it in your luggage?
the fuck, seriously, get real. if the art is too large, bad luck to you, really.

and if you see a piece you really want and you cant take it with you, seek someone else traveling by car who goes to the same area than you (plenty of people traveling by car from pretty much any european country) or get a package at a post office, wrap in bubblewrap and ship as fragile, of course it's not free, but it's doable...

beside, glass is not a problem if you correctly wrap the frame and, of course, have a rigid luggage.



No, I think you've misunderstood my post. At no point did I request artists should change the size of their art - that's a decision entirely for them to make, and suggesting they should all "do small pieces so I can get them in my luggage" is both stupid and conceited - my apologies to you if you misunderstood this. The point I was trying to make was that size is a limiting factor for many travellers and that large pieces are therefore being aimed at an inherently smaller market of potential buyers.

As regards getting a friend with a car to take it - sure - if they're willing, if they have space and if you live anywhere near them. However those from, say, the USA or Australia may have a problem finding someone with a car who can drive it back for them ;) Based on previous experience, I'd personally (note - I say personally !) be highly reluctant to ship anything fragile and valuable by post.

Glass might not be a problem if you have the space to multi-wrap it in something that can cushion it - however, plastic requires less cushioning and is inherently safer for transport.

As an artist, my recommendation to anyone not travelling by car but looking to make purchases in the art show is to invest a little cash in a large hard-shell suitcase. I got ours from Tesco for under £40 and it's survived a ton of trips, if you have a bigger budget you could get something even bigger and fancier. When I have had to transport artshow stuff in a plane (or even the one glass fronted frame I had this year in the car) I've put the work in the hardshell suitcase packed in with clothes/bubblewrap, and never had an issue. Definitely worth it and you'll appreciate it if you're buying anything else a bit fragile too, at the con or on another holiday!
Title: Re: EF20 Art Show feedback for artists
Post by: timoran on 08.09.2014, 17:40:13
Custom frame sizes - in the USA I get mine from framesbymail.com, they're very affordable. There is probably a similar thing in Europe. "Frames by Post" maybe? Lol.

Large format art - Please don't stop! I love large format art, but I wish the art show/artist could be more helpful on the shipping end. If the artist would simply bring a sturdy shipping-suitable box* to hold the art and offer to ship it at cost, I might bid on something that doesn't fit in my suitcase. Sadly the art show at EF20 wasn't as great as EF19. There was far less large format and canvas art this year. Success at the art show isn't always about effort but about making an impression. Things that really show well in person are canvas, textured paints, metallics, and anything 3d.

* A sturdy shipping-suitable box means the UPS man can back his truck tire over it and the contents will still be ok!
Title: Re: EF20 Art Show feedback for artists
Post by: ysegrim on 08.09.2014, 20:11:30
Thing is, two thirds of the potential buyers would not need such a box, and might not want to pay for it -- which lowers the revenue for many artists by the price of said box.

Hmm. What could work, though, if one of the sellers in the Dealers' Den would sell such boxes / frames / basically all kind of art supplies. I wonder whether someone would be willing to sell such items for those who might need them ...
Title: Re: EF20 Art Show feedback for artists
Post by: Fineas on 09.09.2014, 12:14:08
Thing is, two thirds of the potential buyers would not need such a box, and might not want to pay for it -- which lowers the revenue for many artists by the price of said box.

Hmm. What could work, though, if one of the sellers in the Dealers' Den would sell such boxes / frames / basically all kind of art supplies. I wonder whether someone would be willing to sell such items for those who might need them ...

To be honest. I have been thinking about doing just something like that, if only to supply letter size showcases (http://www.jm-bruneau.nl/nl/klassement/geperforeerde-hoesjes/standaard-geperforeerde-hoesjes/C368.html) to everyone (like me) who likes to put their art/prints in a  (ring) binder (http://www.staples.com/1-1-2-inch-Avery-Heavy-Duty-View-Binder-with-One-Touch/product_436626).

They are always in short supply on the convention and the American letter size A4 are impossible to come by in Europe.
I have literally asked a company here in The Netherlands to hunt them down for me and I will give them a commission for finding them.

But back to the point; I was thinking about opening an office supplies shop at EF, however I do not like sitting at a table all day selling paper clips, pens and binders. Not even for (a hefty) profit.

I'm ok with:
- Making and keeping an inventory
- Checking out best sales prices quality etc
- Making the orders and figure out transportation to EF
- Stock and restock a store/table
- Figure out all the money involved (initial investment, tax or transfer to charity, sales report)
- Manning the table for 1 hour a day tops and if possible rather 4x 15 minutes then a full 60 minutes sit
- Keeping the seller company and check out if things are in order just as many times as it takes.

But I just don't want to be tied to a table. EF means freedom for me and the ability to walk around and do useful stuff (especially as a ConOps member) is really gratifying.
And having to do stuff before the con or just walking to this table/store and say hi, restock it or which ever is needed does not diminish that feeling.

So I guess this is a call out:
If you feel you want something like this, I can help you start this up.
However keep in mind; this is not a promise.
If you say yes, that means we are going to figure out what it means, explorer the possibilities, document & agree on the workings, eventually shake hands and try to run this show at EF21.

And for the record, I will not do this as a EF staff/ConOps member without consulting the rest of the staff.
So this might well be a normal dealers table that sells office supplies for profit/charity.
Title: Re: EF20 Art Show feedback for artists
Post by: Fafnir Kristensen on 09.09.2014, 12:44:29
They are always in short supply on the convention and the American letter size A4 are impossible to come by in Europe.
I have literally asked a company here in The Netherlands to hunt them down for me and I will give them a commission for finding them.
I order them on ebay, but it's kinda sad to pay almost more in shipping cost than for the sheets themselves  :-\