The Eurofurence Forum
Eurofurence Information => Questions & Answers => Topic started by: Rafa Greenfur on 16.01.2017, 16:11:12
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I don't want to start a shitstorm against neither the EF staff nor the Estrel Hotel.
And I'd like to ask anybody to use common sense and be respectful in this discussion.
Also, please read the official announcement of EF, where they did explain upfront WHY they did change the booking process. What they state there is absolutely reasonable: https://forum.eurofurence.org/index.php/topic,7389.0.html (https://forum.eurofurence.org/index.php/topic,7389.0.html)
To me it appeared that the provider who was responsible for the booking screwed up big time.
This may have happened due to miscommunication – or just human error.
Of course it can (!) be a challenge for a server or computer centre to process several hundreds of requests at the same time.
Especially when furry-style DDOS-like behavior is added to it (endless rape of the refresh button, for example, which creates further overhead the servers have to handle).
But on the other hand a situation like this could've been communicated to the booking provider – so he is able to increase the server capacity upfront. I don't know if this was already the case?
Anyways, what bothers me is one thing: was a (in my view) "secret" booking link leaked (before it was twittered)?
This would be just plain unfair – and I don't accuse EF staff directly for that. Maybe somebody who got that URL just spread it.
This is nothing which can be controlled, apart from not giving a "secret" booking URL to anybody but EF staff.
So, for the next EF I plead you, EF staff, to make sure that the booking process runs fair and accesible to anybody.
thanks for your time.
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I fully understand why they changed the system and normally it should have been no problem.
What bothers me are those "secret links", there where more then one way to book your room and at the end two of them where shut down (including the official link) with an "access denied" while others still worked (like the mobile site and going directly via the Estrel website). The only reason I got no room that way is because I found out too late that no late pepartment was possible over that way...
But this is also a problem with the booking provider and nothing the EF staff or Estrel could help with. I just hope I can get a room via the waiting list or I find someone with an open space in his room.
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I also would really appreciate that convention fee refunds are now introduced as I was unable to get a room because of this issue and going to overflow hotel is not an option for me.
Therefore I can no longer attend, however I already payed, and yes why pay before?? because you get only a very limited time to pay...
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The latest tweet says that there are a lot of double bookings... hope they open the waiting list soon. I would try that first bevore canceling.
I have a room in another Hotel, but that wasn't really what I was planning...
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It's sad that I probably won't meet some friends of mine :/
Takes really the mood to attend this year right now...
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I don't really want to repeat what's already been said, but really, everything there is to say has already nicely been summed up in the OP.
Like others, the greatest frustration with this - dare I call it so - failure is most definitely the various different ways through which one could have had luck booking when there was only one official link given while there were multiple ways to access the booking providers system. By the time the official @eurofurence twittered another service link, it was already experiencing the very same issues the original link had. And even after both of these went out of service there was still the option of going through the mobile sites, options which I simply did not know and had no way of knowing about and only found out about way after there were no rooms left to book. And all of this over six hours of tears and frustration. I know and have attended events where tickets were sold out within the first two minutes, but never have I experienced six hours of - pardon - such bullshit.
Long story short: I feel incredibly cheated by the whole process. To me, it felt absolutely unfair. As said before, this doesn't go out to complain to either the Estrel who we are very lucky to have, nor the EF organisators, but I am in the same boat with the OP: This has been nothing short of a disaster for many.
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Please point me in the right direction:
How can we (me and my wife) get on that waiting list?
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I'm waitng for the information myself. I hope they will post it soon.
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As you can imagine, this did not work out the way it was planned, and the shit hit the fan in multiple organisations. It will take a few more hours, maybe a day, to figure out what happens next. Everyone is a bit busy right now.
(And please also keep in mind that we, here at EF, are all working people, so we have to organise all besides our day job. it's amazing nobody got fired today. :) )
It will take a little while until we have all the information we need, and I promise we will post it as soon as we have it.
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It will take a little while until we have all the information we need, and I promise we will post it as soon as we have it.
Thank you for the affirmation, Cheetah. Let's pray this works out well in the end after all.
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And please also keep in mind that we, here at EF, are all working people, so we have to organise all besides our day job. it's amazing nobody got fired today. :)
This is very true, I think many of us gone very far on this Monday "just" to get a Hotel room…
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Long story short: I feel incredibly cheated by the whole process. To me, it felt absolutely unfair. As said before, this doesn't go out to complain to either the Estrel who we are very lucky to have, nor the EF organisators, but I am in the same boat with the OP: This has been nothing short of a disaster for many.
It is reassuring that there are others who feel the same way and can see this whole thing reasonably.
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If you did not get a room, you can email reservierung@estrel.com and they will put you on the waiting list. Please note, that it might take a few days for them to answer, as they are now being flooded with mails.
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I'm not here to talk about the troubles of last booking session but to give my suggest.
I hope that my bad english is enough to explain my idea.
I suggest to change EuroFurence registration form, NOT Estrel or other hotel booking engine!
Why? It's simple, we are about 2000 attendee for EF23, but we don't need a single room for each one, but about one for 2 people, one for 3 people and one for 4 people, but every attendee can book a room, and that make a trouble like more people trying to books same rooms and a big DDOS of a lot of people that tries to books a room before it finish!
My 2 cents are: Add in EF registration form the registration ID of roommate and who can book the room, only the choice one can book the room because he receive an EF coupon code for the booking, by mail or on the ef panel, with that code he can access, when he want after you accepted him, to the EF days in the booking engine and book the room for 2, 3 or 4 people.
If the choice one can't book the room, just he can give the coupon code and demand to book to another roommate.
The coupon code can be used only one time, if you don't have coupon code you can't book at Estrel, there are only a specific number of coupon code (one for each room that can be booked for EF), when there are no more coupon code, no one can recive another coupon code, if a coupon code isn't used for X days (1 week or the end of january) it will expire and a new coupon code will be ready to be assigned to next one in queue.
That's a way to try to solve "the booking gate", or just use a booking engine hosted on more strong and fast cloud computing system :)
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What you are suggesting, and other ideas in the direction of putting more room booking responsibility back into the EF's paws, requires a lot of software development and also management work, and the scarce development resources of this team of volunteers are already very strained. There is just not enough work force available for any of that while keeping the core services that make up the con itself running.
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@RedFoxy
I was about to write the exact same idea now.
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ok but there are only few way to solve troubles and the way of the "no responsibility" isn't the one trouble less, it can be if you have a lot of money :|
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If I understand properly, the idea behind the change in the booking system was to reduce the strain on the Estrel Staff (and sadly it had the opposite effect).
Instead, to even out the stress on the system and to reduce frustration for all parties involved, how about adopting a system similar to how big planes are boarded?
The way it happens, is that seating opens up by row ranges - e.g. passengers with seat rows 70-99, then 50-99, then 30-99, etc. - as a way to control the boarding flow.
Applied to hotel booking, the basic idea would be:
1) Registration opens on day X
2) On day X+7, hotel booking opens for registrars with ID 1-400
3) On day X+14, hotel booking opens for registrars with ID 1-800
4) On day X+21, hotel booking opens for registrars with ID 1-1200
etc.
That way:
1) The registration system itself acts as a "queuing system" by re-using your registration ID as your hotel booking ticket number;
2) The stress is evened-out in a way that is known in advance both for registrars and the Estrel Staff;
3) It requires pre-planning (do we open up for 400 registrars at a time, or more, or less? Do we leave 7 days between openings, or more, or less?), but once that is done, it requires minimal efforts to maintain once running - just cross-checking the registration ID with (1) the planning (is booking open for that ID range?) and (2) the registration details (to avoid people saying "I have ID 244, book me a room" whereas they actually have ID 2440).
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Instead, to even out the stress on the system and to reduce frustration for all parties involved, how about adopting a system similar to how big planes are boarded?
The way it happens, is that seating opens up by row ranges - e.g. passengers with seat rows 70-99, then 50-99, then 30-99, etc. - as a way to control the boarding flow.
Except that there are sufficient seats for all passengers, while there are not as many rooms as attendees.
Your system would just ensure that the first batches of numbers all get a room, and the last won't get anything.
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Except that there are sufficient seats for all passengers, while there are not as many rooms as attendees.
Your system would just ensure that the first batches of numbers all get a room, and the last won't get anything.
The problem you're describing is that there are aren't enough rooms for all the attendees who would like a room.
This is already happening today - it's not a new problem the proposed idea will introduce.
This is a problem no booking system will solve, and it is not the problem the new EF23 system nor the proposed idea are trying to solve.
Essentially, we have to accept that the "not enough rooms" problem is out of our hands. We need to wait for the Estrel to build additional rooms, and that will take time.
We will face that problem every year, we faced it this year as well albeit in a much more frustrating way (as evidenced by all the comments in this thread and the others).
What we can do, is make that process the least frustrating possible - and that can only happen with a clear, transparent, known-in-advance process.
This is what the proposed idea is trying to achieve.
As mentioned in this thread, people are (1) frustrated about not getting a room, and (2) frustrated about having spent 6 hours of their lives struggling with server errors to come back empty handed.
We cannot do anything for (1). We can however act on (2). This is what this suggestion is about.
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Discussing possible other workflows for the Estrel booking here is really moot. The EF is not the Estrel, and as I've pointed out before, there is no work force available to take that back into EF hands as it was years ago.
Behind the scenes, people from all involved parties are now scurrying to analyze what happened today and strengthen the systems for next year, but that is all that can realistically be done regarding this hotel at the moment.
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Discussing possible other workflows for the Estrel booking here is really moot. The EF is not the Estrel, and as I've pointed out before, there is no work force available to take that back into EF hands as it was years ago.
Behind the scenes, people from all involved parties are now scurrying to analyze what happened today and strengthen the systems for next year, but that is all that can realistically be done regarding this hotel at the moment.
And please do free up the duplicated reservations somehow.... So make it available to the others waiting gor rooms....
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If I understand properly, the idea behind the change in the booking system was to reduce the strain on the Estrel Staff (and sadly it had the opposite effect).
Instead, to even out the stress on the system and to reduce frustration for all parties involved, how about adopting a system similar to how big planes are boarded?
The way it happens, is that seating opens up by row ranges - e.g. passengers with seat rows 70-99, then 50-99, then 30-99, etc. - as a way to control the boarding flow.
Applied to hotel booking, the basic idea would be:
1) Registration opens on day X
2) On day X+7, hotel booking opens for registrars with ID 1-400
3) On day X+14, hotel booking opens for registrars with ID 1-800
4) On day X+21, hotel booking opens for registrars with ID 1-1200
etc.
That way:
1) The registration system itself acts as a "queuing system" by re-using your registration ID as your hotel booking ticket number;
2) The stress is evened-out in a way that is known in advance both for registrars and the Estrel Staff;
3) It requires pre-planning (do we open up for 400 registrars at a time, or more, or less? Do we leave 7 days between openings, or more, or less?), but once that is done, it requires minimal efforts to maintain once running - just cross-checking the registration ID with (1) the planning (is booking open for that ID range?) and (2) the registration details (to avoid people saying "I have ID 244, book me a room" whereas they actually have ID 2440).
You are right, but I still think it isn't very friendly to open a booking system at an unexpected time. So you have to quote date+time tables for each EF number frame. Like 0-100 at [date] and [time]. As you see that might become a hassle. Neither its fair if you live in the US and you have to do a registration at 4:00AM.... :)
The hotel will sell out anyway, with or without crappy system.
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With the previous booking system (on the SAME server/website) workload was spread along the night and the day after so as soon as you got the link (when EF staff manually processed your REG) you could log into booking system and get your room without any problem.
Now, it's 2000-3000 persons booking at the same time, so if you don't have a good internet and a lot of chance (or you use a secret link) you have basically very very few chances to get your room, even if you regged to EF (and tried to book the room) during the first minutes.
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Hello and good evening.
First of all, excuse me for my bad english,I'm not used to write a lot in English so, forgive my several grammatical errors.
I don't want to say anything or even want make controversy.
I was one of the lucky ones to be able to take a room for me and 2 other furries.
With the problem that occurred today some people managed, thanks to a link that has circulated "secretly" as long as needed just to get the room without any problems.
I know for sure, however, that there are people that with this trick took more than one room.
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Regarding a "secret" link: From what I saw, there were a few different links in circulation, and all of them worked better or worse every now and then, accessing the same hopelessly overloaded back-end.
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Btw we can have all ideas that we can, but, the real trouble was from ihotelier, the booking engine system that understimate, or it's too small to support a load like yesterday, than the wy faster to fix it is to use a more stronge booking engine or to tell at ihotelier to use more resource for us when we need to book.
I noticed that ihotelier and other ihotelier's hotel wasn't slow or with our load, when I noticed that I tried something, like to create a new link using only Estrel hotel id, it worked and it was really fast, than I tried to add the Eurofurence discount code and it goes, still fast, than the trouble was maded by ihotelier that separate EF booking engine to different servers/resource and doesn't add more resouce when they seen that there are not enought.
My ideas (coupon code) or other ideas like different time to book based on registration id are good ideas but using a good and strong booking engine can solve our booking troubles without giving more responsability to EF staff, but there is only a trouble about that, a strong booking engine is more expansive.
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I suggested this alternative solution in another thread:
Divide con guests in batches. Not random batches, but batches according to reasonable criteria:
- Batch 1: people with conditions and disabilities, for example: wheelchair, bad eye sight, need for special rooms, etc.
- Batch 2: fursuiters! Generally only 25% of all furs is a fursuiter. However, they have to carry quite a load around, which is unpractical if you have to move through a city for a number of kilometers.
- Batch 3: regular guests. For people who are physically and mentally fit and have not much to carry, moving half an hour to and from the con site by public transportation is doable.
These are just some criteria that come to my mind. I suggest we have an open discussion about it so the guests can have their say and they eventually can support a reasonable final solution.
This doesn't require much reprogramming. Having three con booking codes instead of one won't be hard to achieve.
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I hope the special conditions/fursuiter/regular separation comes with the Estrel Tower. (If the main con part stays on the side of the hotel where it is now.)
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I suggested this alternative solution in another thread:
Divide con guests in batches. Not random batches, but batches according to reasonable criteria:
There is no way how someone can "prove" that they are fursuiters. It would be too easy to cheat, which would create a tremendous amount of drama.
While it looks like a good idea at first sight, it's not feasible in practice.
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I hope the special conditions/fursuiter/regular separation comes with the Estrel Tower. (If the main con part stays on the side of the hotel where it is now.)
Well, the main conference halls are on the current side. However, there are conference rooms in the new tower too, which we may need to use because the panel rooms on the current side are limited, so the con will definitely be more spread out.
I guess it is too early to talk about the new Tower yet, since they haven't begun construction yet. But it is definitely on the map for the future.
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There is no way how someone can "prove" that they are fursuiters. It would be too easy to cheat, which would create a tremendous amount of drama. While it looks like a good idea at first sight, it's not feasible in practice.
True, there is a flip side to every coin. But hey, if furries can't trust each other to some extent, why have a conference at all? I think we have to try to ask people to be honest about having a fursuit or not. Undoubtedly, there will be a number of cheaters. Well, maybe we need to make a wall of shame for those who get busted. Or we just have to make a number of extremely ugly fursuits they will have to wear during the entire con. :D
There are positive reasons for not having a room in the Estrel too. Many hotels are a lot cheaper and I know furs who don't even try the Estrel for that reason. Furthermore, a group of furs can agree to get the same hotel, so they have quality time together as well. Small hotels are probably a lot cozier than the 1000+ Estrel.
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Please remember that this is a furry convention encompassing many forms of art and socializing, and not a fursuiting show. Have a heart, there will not be such a room privilege just because someone has a fursuit. o_O
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Only a question, EuroFurence isn't the only furcon in the world an it isn't the biggest one, how uncle kage solve that troubles with Anthrocon? the are bigger than us, there is a furry flood attack at booking engine and ticket selling too or they solve it? and MFF? and other?
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- Batch 2: fursuiters! Generally only 25% of all furs is a fursuiter. However, they have to carry quite a load around, which is unpractical if you have to move through a city for a number of kilometers.
Besides that it's impossible to tell whether all who have checked the fursuiter box during registration are actually fursuiters (let alone that they're going to bring and wear a fursuit at the convention), this won't work for another reason: nearly 46% of all registered attendees have checked that box, more than the number of guest rooms at the Estrel. Even though many fursuiters are having an other fursuiter as a room mate, this probably might have worked this year, but certainly not with the projected number of attendees for next EF.
We're stuck with the reservation rush room lottery, I'm afraid. Let's hope it won't take six hours again next year.
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As far as I know, Anthrocon spreads over 4 hotels (or even more). I don't know how long the distances between the hotels are and if there are shuttles or something like that.
Well... Berlin also has more than this one hotel ;-) but I also understand that this isn't a good option for veryone. I have a reservation for a room in another Hotel about 30 min walking distance), but I would also prefer to be in the Estrel.
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As far as I know, Anthrocon spreads over 4 hotels (or even more). I don't know how long the distances between the hotels are and if there are shuttles or something like that.
Well... Berlin also has more than this one hotel ;-) but I also understand that this isn't a good option for veryone. I have a reservation for a room in another Hotel about 30 min walking distance), but I would also prefer to be in the Estrel.
I am a fursuiter and also have a reservation in another hotel about 30 minutes distance.
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I'm a fursuiter and I've a reservation at Estrel Hotel but I leave my suit in the fursuit den
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Only a question, EuroFurence isn't the only furcon in the world an it isn't the biggest one, how uncle kage solve that troubles with Anthrocon? the are bigger than us, there is a furry flood attack at booking engine and ticket selling too or they solve it? and MFF? and other?
MFF was booked solid in less than 4 minutes. I got 2 server errors and was then told that the room block is booked out ;)
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Can we expect to have EF Reg payment date extended for the persons on the waiting list ?
I have the feeling I'll have to wait until july/august on this list to have a small chance to get a room. 3 days on the waiting list won't be enough.
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About giving an advantage to fursuiters, I think some people misread my mail.
My general point is not about fursuiters, it's about finding rational and reasonable criteria to divide the group into batches that can reserve sequentially in time. Sure, a lottery would solve the problem, but maybe there are better ways.
I did remark that about 25% of all furries has a suit en 75% hasn't. I don't have a suit for example. It's not about making furry fandom a fursuit-centered fandom. I would oppose such an idea just as any other furry because indeed, there is an uncountable number of ways to express your furriness.
The argument is merely about what is practical. It seems practical to me that people with a lot of heavy luggage and gear would benefit from having a room close to the con site, whereas people who travel light don't benefit from this advantage as much.
I think that all practical and reasonable arguments serve such a discussion. It would be a good thing, IMHO, if the pros and cons of several options would be discussed without excluding any ideas a priori. If this initial idea is not any good in your opinion, please try to come up with positive critique and if possible, better alternatives. Let's try to solve this problem as good as possible, as a community, being social and thinking about the interests of everyone in a fair way.