The Eurofurence Forum
Eurofurence Information => Feedback => Topic started by: Rishary on 31.08.2018, 20:44:47
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EDIT: The polls in this thread were removed due to suspected manipulation, answer the polls in the SFW EF24 telegram group instead (Search there for #EF24Feedback, poke me on telegram @Rishary if you need help finding them)
Another year of amazing experiences and unforgettable adventures is behind us. Many aspects this year left a positive mark on me (Smooth handling of the AC issues early on, food trucks, generally no/short delays, even greater dance variety than usual). I would like to thank everyone that helps bringing this incredible convention to life year after year. Still, I do have a few points which I believe are worthy of discussion in order to make the next years even better for everyone involved.
I’m aware that some of these points were raised and discussed before but I feel that they are still as relevant as ever.
Pawpet show
Every year I stand stunned by the amount of talent poured into this production, it is truly awe-inspiring. However there are two points regarding the show which I would like to bring:
- The overall length - It is simply too mentally exhausting to watch such a show for 3.5 hours (not including delays / queueing). This leads to getting bored during the occasional slow moving scenes and missing key details which hampers the overall ability to enjoy the show. I would like to see the general opinion regarding this so please answer THIS poll. EDIT: Poll removed due to suspected manipulation, answer the poll in the SFW EF24 telegram group instead!
Common arguments and my responses:
“It’s just another panel, if you don’t like it - don’t attend”
This would only be relevant if the majority of the show’s audience prefers to watch a show with the current 3.5 hour, three-act format rather than a shorter two-act one. Hence the poll.
“The performers put their heart and soul into this show, they deserve the more time to have their fun”
If the mindset of the show’s production is to maximize the enjoyment of the performers first and the audience only second, there is no reason to even collect feedback from non-performers, just let the show’s crew do what they want (please confirm if this is indeed the mindset).
- The long transitions - Listening to such musical breaks between the scenes is not fun. I understand that some of the scenes require a long time to set up, but having more impressive scenes at the expense of long transition times between them - isn’t a good tradeoff in my opinion. Either consider setup time when designing the scenes and make them less demanding if necessary, or find a better way to fill the transition (More dialog? Recorded story progressing animations?).
Early dealer’s den access for (super) sponsors.
Simply put, this goes against what I perceive as the general mindset behind having sponsors in the first place. When someone sponsors, they should be doing that because they want to first and foremost support the con, not because they want to buy extra benefits and help the con only as a side effect.
I imagine that quite a few people that can’t afford to super sponsor would happily queue up long before the den is open just for a commission from their favorite artist. In other words, early access is just commission tax and I would like to know if it indeed helps the con at all so please answer THIS poll. EDIT: Poll removed due to suspected manipulation, answer the poll in the SFW EF24 telegram group instead!
Another thing to mention is that people can simply ask a friend of theirs that does super-sponsor to get the early slot for them, completely missing the point of “Getting more people to super sponsor”.
By the way, it is worth noting that the other additional gifts and perks are great.
Common arguments and my responses:
“Without this, we will lose too many sponsors and the cost of the con will increase”
Could be, which is why I opened the poll.
“If they can afford commissions they can afford to (super) sponsor”
First, this might not even be true considering the 160€ super sponsor fee can be more than triple the cost of a commission. Second, even if it was true, not everyone would agree to pay 200€ for a 50€ commission even if they could afford it (even more so if most of the money doesn’t go to their said favorite artist).
“Just commission said artist outside of the con”
A lot of artists very rarely (if at all) have slots available online so this isn’t really an option. If it was an option, then the early access benefit would be diminished anyway and wouldn’t single-handedly get people to sponsor.
“You are just upset because you can’t afford it”
I’m upset that I even have to bring this up as I did hear this. No, I can easily afford it and would happily super-sponsor the con as soon as the early access is revoked.
Feedback session
I was extremely satisfied to see a timeslot dedicated to this important subject this year. My satisfaction, however, was short-lived and sadly disappeared without a trace after spending 5 minutes in the session which sadly turned out to be a just a session with one guy that writes our feedback, which is pretty much the same as writing it here or in an email. I expected a bigger session with relevant people from different departments that could participate in live discussions and answer questions regarding the points that the attendees brought.
Water availability
As a non-suiter (working on fixing that :) ), getting water to drink is way more tedious than it should be. My options were:
a. Drink at a bathroom and settle for warm water.
b. Wait in a long queue at a bar just for water or ice.
c. Carry a bottle around everywhere.
I have done all three of these and can’t say I was happy with any of them (for obvious reasons, I hope).
Would it be possible to have extra water coolers around the con, or readily available water pitchers at the bar?
This was especially relevant for people at the club stage who had to go down and back up for any options that isn’t c (even fursuiters!).
Main bar service
(Note: I have later learned that you could also order most things at the other bar across the lobby. If more people did that it might have solved this point completely).
This might be only my perspective, but I felt that the people working at the main bar were slacking off and provided poor service that only passes as acceptable by furries. There were times where there was only one bartender on the entire bar which resulted in an extremely long queue. It took me almost 30 minutes to order a hamburger and then 30 minutes for it to arrive. This would not be acceptable if this was a business convention.
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Early dealer’s den access for (super) sponsors.
To my knowledge, the basic idea was that these are people who are helping to keep the con capable of sustaining the more elaborate events and as a token of gratitude, they get stuff like some alone time in the dealer's den or priority seating in stage events. While I don't know about your experiences, I haven't heard of artists being completely sold out within the sponsor time - most that I know were definitely still taking commissions at least on Friday. So in the end, the sponsors get the same stuff everyone else is getting, just with a little more comfort.
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Early dealer’s den access for (super) sponsors.
To my knowledge, the basic idea was that these are people who are helping to keep the con capable of sustaining the more elaborate events and as a token of gratitude, they get stuff like some alone time in the dealer's den or priority seating in stage events.
The idea is that early access doesn't take anything from EF's budget, unlike sponsors' gifts, nor does it require significant other ressources like supersponsor-only panels. So it gives people some value without taking away from the actual sponsored amount.
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The idea is that early access doesn't take anything from EF's budget, unlike sponsors' gifts, nor does it require significant other ressources like supersponsor-only panels. So it gives people some value without taking away from the actual sponsored amount.
Just because it doesn't cost anything to the con doesn't mean it's a fair perk, especially if it doesn't actually increase sponsorship (hence the poll).
If it indeed doesn't increase it, then all it does is cause unfairness towards people that can't afford it, especially newcomers who are unlikely to sponsor on their first con and can't get a commission from their favorite artist even though they are willing to queue up hours before time.
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Regarding the long time between scenes of the pawpet show: it's a valid complaint and we apologize for that. They were way too long, indeed. We've already isolated one major factor that lead to it and will improve our processes to avoid at least that one in the future. We'll continue to evaluate where else we can cut down setup times as well.
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While I don't know about your experiences, I haven't heard of artists being completely sold out within the sponsor time - most that I know were definitely still taking commissions at least on Friday. So in the end, the sponsors get the same stuff everyone else is getting, just with a little more comfort.
Same - I did supersponsor this year (which was also my first year at EF) and didn't go to the Dealers' Den during early access, but at every artist I scouted for commissions, they were still open on the Friday. So if the artists aren't completely selling out their commission slots during early access, I don't see why this perk is a problem. Alternatively, what would you suggest instead?
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While I don't know about your experiences, I haven't heard of artists being completely sold out within the sponsor time - most that I know were definitely still taking commissions at least on Friday. So in the end, the sponsors get the same stuff everyone else is getting, just with a little more comfort.
Same - I did supersponsor this year (which was also my first year at EF) and didn't go to the Dealers' Den during early access, but at every artist I scouted for commissions, they were still open on the Friday. So if the artists aren't completely selling out their commission slots during early access, I don't see why this perk is a problem. Alternatively, what would you suggest instead?
Sometimes the artists are indeed still open for commissions after the early access period but I have been to quite a few cons where this wasn't the case. My suggestion is simply removing this perk without replacing it with something else as I don't feel that it would affect sponsorship amount. (Currently the poll shows it, but we need more votes).
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Personaly speaking: I think the whole Dealers Den thing is part of the believe on missing something out. I know for a fact that some artists give out commission slots not as a bulk but on a daily basis so everyone has a chance. Also, it is way more relaxed in the den after the initial run. I would love to see a better management by the artists on whom they are giving commission slots, but on the other hand it is still their business.
I will however still stay in the lobby and ask the artists I like via social media if they have a slot then waiting in line...
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Personaly speaking: I think the whole Dealers Den thing is part of the believe on missing something out. I know for a fact that some artists give out commission slots not as a bulk but on a daily basis so everyone has a chance. Also, it is way more relaxed in the den after the initial run. I would love to see a better management by the artists on whom they are giving commission slots, but on the other hand it is still their business.
I will however still stay in the lobby and ask the artists I like via social media if they have a slot then waiting in line...
So, if it is possible to still get commissions without missing out even without super sponsoring on later days or via social media, that would mean that this perk isn't really a perk is it? That is, it wouldn't cause people to super sponsor if they wouldn't otherwise which again means it can be safely removed.
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So, if it is possible to still get commissions without missing out even without super sponsoring on later days or via social media, that would mean that this perk isn't really a perk is it? That is, it wouldn't cause people to super sponsor if they wouldn't otherwise which again means it can be safely removed.
It definitely is a perk, nothing can be said against that, and it's one which is a large reason as to why people take Supersponsor as well. Also, depending on the artist, not everyone was booked out for commissions after the Supersponsor and Sponsor rush. Some reserved some spaces for normal attendees, but that's the choice of the relevant artists personally. Vader-san was one such example, he had a specific amount reserved for the specific opening times to give everybody a chance.
Also, the Supersonsor entry doesn't only concern commissions, it also does with liquors, books, shirts, basically everything. It's not 'pay extra for a 50€ commission' but a 'pay extra for whatever you like to buy' thing.
The same could be said about Supersponsor seating then. If the mindset is not to offer any 'unfair advantages' to them, those would've to go as well, same with the specific presents. Though they are paid for with the price, it's still something that only Sponsors and Supersponsors can get. My reason for being a Supersponsor is simple, or rather my 2 reasons. Number 1: Aid the con without putting personal work into it, I want to enjoy the time and not work. And 2: I'm small, I need a seat in a good place or things like the Pawpetshow will just be useless to me.
So, take away this 'unfair bonus' and half the reason would be gone for me already. While all the mentioned points are definitely relevant, sane arguments and absolutely understandable, how many people would just Sponsor or Supersonsor out of the good of their hearts?
It would be significantly less, meaning significantly less spending money for EF and therefore a lower quality con. I have to say, I rather see the unfairness of it (easy to say since I am a Supersponsor since 8 years now in the row) then having it change to a festival of 'early arrival only' events, where I have to queue up for hours to see a single panel, missing out on all the other things on the side. That would happen with the pawpetshow, the dealer's den, Kage's show and some others, meaning instead of enjoying the con, we would have more of a 'enjoying the line' like so many other big conventions have problems with. And if that should ever happen in the future, well... then I wouldn't aid the con personally anymore aswell, simply because the enjoyment would be missing for me.
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Personaly speaking: I think the whole Dealers Den thing is part of the believe on missing something out. I know for a fact that some artists give out commission slots not as a bulk but on a daily basis so everyone has a chance. Also, it is way more relaxed in the den after the initial run. I would love to see a better management by the artists on whom they are giving commission slots, but on the other hand it is still their business.
I will however still stay in the lobby and ask the artists I like via social media if they have a slot then waiting in line...
So, if it is possible to still get commissions without missing out even without super sponsoring on later days or via social media, that would mean that this perk isn't really a perk is it? That is, it wouldn't cause people to super sponsor if they wouldn't otherwise which again means it can be safely removed.
The perk part is the fact that they get to enjoy the Dealer's Den first, with less queue time outside, less crowd inside and while the air is still breathable. At least that's why I was slightly envious of them, but hey - they pay for my con events, so good for them. I can live with waiting a little more. I can live with getting the "worse" spots at the main stage - after all, that's what the two ginormous screens are for. And I would have loved to go to Convention War Stories, but so far, there's always been a clip of it on Youtube sooner or later.
I think the organizers have struck a good balance between giving out a nice perk that doesn't cost them anything to provide and not unduly disadvantaging the rest of the con-goers.
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The difference between the early access perk and the priority seating is that you can still watch the shows from the standard seating places quite well. Once the commissions/unique items are gone then they are gone, you can't get them so the analogy is weak in my opinion.
To put it simple, let's say there is an item that is limited enough to be sold out during early access I have two options, no middle grounds:
a. Pay the extra 150 euro to get it (Or get someone else that paid to do it for me)
b. Not get it, even if I'm willing to queue up for 2 hours.
This isn't true for the show events as I can still get good seating and view it perfectly fine by simply standing in queue.
And again, we don't even know if this perk even leads to more sponsorship at the con.
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Please also don't disregard the fact that having three distinct opening times means less queuing and a more comfortable experience for everyone.
I believe there were times in the past where security had to stop people at the entrance, only allowing one person in when one person came out, because the Den was simply too crowded. This system greatly alleviates this with minimal cost to all parties involved.
To come back to your original reason: have you ever been in a situation where the artist you wanted to commission was closed by the time the DD opened up for regular attendees? Because from what I'm reading here, this is rarely if ever the case. Some artists even put safeguards in place to prevent this.
I thus fail to see the rationale behind the call to remove this perk, and even moreso the rationale behind choosing explicitly NOT to sponsor the con as long as that perk is there.
And finally: I believe that perk was not put in place as a way to motivate people to sponsor the con. It's simply a way to give back to the people that participate in allowing the con to happen in the first place. If that in turn attracts more sponsorship, then great! If not, it doesn't matter because that's not its goal in the first place.
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About distinct opening items resulting in less queuing - True, but this would happen naturally as people who don't want to snatch hard to get items would simply come back later instead of go as soon as possible.
About missing unique items - It would have happened to me if I didn't send a friend to get me the unique items that I wanted.
I would like to be proven wrong on the following statement - Early access can cause certain people to be upset while simultaneously not helping the con get more sponsors.
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The perk part is the fact that they get to enjoy the Dealer's Den first, with less queue time outside, less crowd inside and while the air is still breathable.
This.
How about having sponsor/supersponsor hours on Friday? Then the sponsors could still enjoy the less crowded Den, and everybody afraid to miss anything can queue all they want on Thursday.
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The perk part is the fact that they get to enjoy the Dealer's Den first, with less queue time outside, less crowd inside and while the air is still breathable.
This.
How about having sponsor/supersponsor hours on Friday? Then the sponsors could still enjoy the less crowded Den, and everybody afraid to miss anything can queue all they want on Thursday.
This is a wonderful idea and I think it's absolutely perfect and elegant!
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I would like to be proven wrong on the following statement - Early access can cause certain people to be upset while simultaneously not helping the con get more sponsors.
You want something proven which can't be done without quite a bit of effort.
To actually prove this, you would need to hold the EF at least 2 times without this in effect, the first year nobody will know about it and be pissed, causing massive lines for the Dealer's then at initial opening, leaving half the line to miss out on the Fursuit parade + being in the way of such.
The Second year, the problem would stay the same, leaving those problems in place while we can then actually see the number.
So even with the proof, the surrounding problems would still not be alleviated, which means massive crowds at the opening time, and that's contra-productive to everyone.
As it was said before, it's the task of the specific Artists to work with the system, it's well known and many adapt, some don't. Getting a space for a commission at a con is definitely easier then otherwise, that's why the Supersonsor is in high regard.
So, given all that, I would rather want to hear the thought process of why you think it even would raise the amount of Sponsors rather then lower it, which in this direction makes far more sense, as the incentive for buying a Supersonsor is rather to get better stuff then not buying it because you don't like the system.
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The perk part is the fact that they get to enjoy the Dealer's Den first, with less queue time outside, less crowd inside and while the air is still breathable.
This.
How about having sponsor/supersponsor hours on Friday? Then the sponsors could still enjoy the less crowded Den, and everybody afraid to miss anything can queue all they want on Thursday.
Love it. Doubt EF would change anything regarding this, but I will suggest it in other conventions. :)
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... early access is just commission tax ...
Sorry to say but "nope". I know that in the US cons handle the money and pay out the artist minus the states' tax. In Germany Eurofurence don't touch the money at all - every artist has to do his/her own taxes as a freelancer, artist or whatsoever. This also includes the artists from outside Germany.
And a lot of artists do daily slots. So most of the supersonsors and sponsors are after the limited items like prints or t-shirts. So if you really like a commission from an artist you storm in early at Friday or Saturday or ask if they are willing to do a sketch commission outside the convention. Most of them do. You just have to ask nicely. :)
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... early access is just commission tax ...
Sorry to say but "nope". I know that in the US cons handle the money and pay out the artist minus the states' tax. In Germany Eurofurence don't touch the money at all - every artist has to do his/her own taxes as a freelancer, artist or whatsoever. This also includes the artists from outside Germany.
The word "tax" wasn't used here in the literal way. In this context it is just "An extra payment that you have to make in order to commission", sorry if this was unclear.
And a lot of artists do daily slots. So most of the supersonsors and sponsors are after the limited items like prints or t-shirts. So if you really like a commission from an artist you storm in early at Friday or Saturday or ask if they are willing to do a sketch commission outside the convention. Most of them do. You just have to ask nicely. :)
If it is still possible to get commissions/short supply items, this would mean that the supersponsor perk is diminished in this regard and will not lure people to super sponsor (As previously suggested, move the early access to Friday).
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You want something proven which can't be done without quite a bit of effort.
To actually prove this, you would need to hold the EF at least 2 times without this in effect, the first year nobody will know about it and be pissed, causing massive lines for the Dealer's then at initial opening, leaving half the line to miss out on the Fursuit parade + being in the way of such.
The Second year, the problem would stay the same, leaving those problems in place while we can then actually see the number.
I agree that it is difficult to prove which is why we can't assert that it's true nor that it is false. So instead we should focus on what people/the con gains if the early access is moved to Friday Vs. what they lose.
As it was said before, it's the task of the specific Artists to work with the system, it's well known and many adapt, some don't. Getting a space for a commission at a con is definitely easier then otherwise, that's why the Supersonsor is in high regard.
If you can get low-stock items on Friday then moving this perk to Friday shouldn't reduce super sponsor count.
If you can't get them, then the other points about unfairness / commission tax / getting your friends to do it for you still stand.
So, given all that, I would rather want to hear the thought process of why you think it even would raise the amount of Sponsors rather then lower it, which in this direction makes far more sense, as the incentive for buying a Supersonsor is rather to get better stuff then not buying it because you don't like the system.
I don't have a statistical significant pool of opinions, all I can say is that I and other people I know can and will super sponsor when this unfair perk is removed while we currently don't do so.
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I'll never understand why taxing limited items is so important in order to get more sponsors.
If I ever needed to get something that's only available in the den and is in limit quantity, I'd ask a sponsor friend if I didn't sponsor.
Kinda feels like everyone can get along just fine with or without it nowadays, as the fandom market is so big and diverse.
I just don't see the point in taxing it for people who for whatever reason feel it's so important to be first in the den queue xD
I do like the idea of a quiet sponsor hour inside the den, but that could be anytime like was suggested.
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I have recently received a few arguments regarding early access from a high-ranking person at EF (Who will stay anonymous unless necessary, to avoid the witch-hunt) and would like to respond to them (I hope said person will correct me if I misrepresent their argument, if I do so - I'm sorry):
"You don't have any arguments against the current system"
This splits into two different cases:
1. If people can still get commissions and hard to get items even without sponsoring, then there is no reason that this perk will cause people to super-sponsor in the first place.
2. If people can't get commissions and hard to get items without sponsoring then it's unfair, and they can still get their super-sponsor friends to do it for them instead of super sponsor themselves (The incentive behind super sponsoring is helping the con first, not buying the perks. Reward the ones that give extra, don't penalize the ones who don't).
"You even removed your poll because the results didn't suit you"
The strawpoll was removed because it was too easy to cheat on, the results on Telegram (https://i.imgur.com/BxNN0dC.png) suited me well before it was removed by the poster.
There isn't a significant amount of attendees supporting your claim.
There isn't also a significant amount that oppose it, post an official poll or after con feedback form if you want any validity to this argument.
Your arguments aren't controllable, they are simply envy or blind idealism.
Calling it envy is flat out ad hominem and disrespectful, especially when it comes from an official. Not only that but even if it was true (It isn't, I hope I don't need to show my paycheck or something), I could still get a super-sponsor friend to get me stuff. Even if this wasn't an option and it was flat out envy - it doesn't make the arguments weaker. Attack the arguments, not the one who presents them or his motives.
Blind idealism? How can you assert that, maybe it's realistic? If you want to assert that, get us to fill an official feedback form.
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I don't understand the personal attacks regarding this topic or any other feedback. The reason I put time and effort to write this, answer other people and debate here is to help the con. Isn't the mindset of the con "Maximize the amount of fun people have while sticking to the available budget"? Everything I said is inline with this ideal.
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I'll repeat my statement because you seem to assume the Supersponsor perks are there solely to attract sponsorship and should only be analyzed in that regard:
I believe that perk was not put in place as a way to motivate people to sponsor the con. It's simply a way to give back to the people that participate in allowing the con to happen in the first place. If that in turn attracts more sponsorship, then great! If not, it doesn't matter because that's not its goal in the first place.
You can get access to limited items even without going through early access, this has been demonstrated time and time again. It would be a problem if (Super)sponsors snatched everything and left regular attendees with nothing. I believe everyone agrees with that. But thankfully that's not the case. So where is the issue?
You can also choose not to use this perk if you find it unfair.
I thus still fail to see your reasoning behind "I would like to supersponsor but I won't do it unless that perk is removed". Feels like blackmail more than real commitment to help the con.
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All the other ways to give back to people that allow the con to happen are great and even having the same exact perk but on Friday would be perfect. None of the other perks affect the other attendees like that - You can still view events from non-priority seating places for example.
Since not all limited access items are available without early access (I know for a fact I would have missed one without sending a super sponsor) it is unfair towards the ones that don't super sponsor (Unless of course they just get a friend to do it for them, completely missing the entire point).
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"Fairness" here is invoked in the wrong context. (Super)sponsors have access to perks regular attendees don't have access to. This balances the fact they help allowing the con to happen in the first place. Is that fair or unfair? Completely up to subjectiveness and interpretation.
With the same reasoning, you could say the (Super)sponsor-only items are "unfair" to the regular attendees, because only (Super)sponsors have access to them. And that's an objective fact, compared to the DD items which rarely, if ever, become unavailable for regular attendees. Why are you thus campaigning to remove the early DD access perk but say nothing about the (Super)sponsor exclusive items?
Because you value DD items more than convention-exclusive items. That is personal and has nothing to do with the concept of fairness.
I thus still fail to see why you deploy so much energy against that "perk". It's been demonstrated time and time again it doesn't prevent non-sponsor attendees from getting the item they're after. And as Alpha_Ki suggested, nothing prevents you from going to an artist/vendor and discussing the situation with them before or during the con, as many are already adopting a system of daily slots/stock. In such cases, if you really wanted a particular item, nothing would prevent you from queuing early on Friday and getting the same result as queuing early on Thursday without early access would.
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I'll repeat this again - if you get perks such as a towel or a neat bag, this doesn't affect me in such a negative way (Missing limited availability stuff in the dealer's den) so this is a weak analogy. If you argue that I won't miss the stuff in the dealer's den regardless (Because it would still be available after early access) then there is no reason not to move this perk to Friday.
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You deem it a "weak analogy", because you value the DD items more than the convention-exclusive items. You definitely have the right to feel that way - but that doesn't make it a universal truth.
If we agree that exclusive items are still available on Friday, then there's no reason not to keep early access on Thursday neither. All is well then :)
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No, I deem it a weak/false analogy because that's how it is defined by logic.
Analogy is:
A is like B. (Early access is like other perks)
B has property P. (Other perks are fair/unfair)
Therefore, A has property P. (Early access is fair/unfair)
It becomes weak when:
In reality, A is not too much like B (Early access isn't like other perks because when another person gets a towel or a beg it doesn't affect me at all but if they get early access I might get robbed out of an item I wanted).
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As an artist and regular attendee view, I personally wouldn't even mind if the sponsors and supersponsors had a specific daily timeslot to browse the DD. They decide to give something to a Con they love, so why not give them an hour of stress-free Den browsing? I can't afford sponsoring, but I totally agree that those who can should receive perks. Not to "pay" them, but to show them gratitude.
I personally tend to visit the Den shortly before closing or during popular events, because I dislike getting shoved around by a gazillion people. And guess what? I still got a hold of nearly all the artists I wanted to this year. Not being able to commission the 80€-sketch artists whose slots are sold out within seconds of the Den opening won't kill me. And yes, I have artwork made by those artists myself.
If you're that desperate to get a slot with a super limited artist, talk to them! Believe it or not, most artists are super agreeable. Be nice, be polite, value their work and you can even get files to print artwork at home because shipping long distance for a single print is just stupid. I have files on my PC for printing artwork that hung in the Mainstage =P
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I would love to see responses / discussion about the other points of feedback that I have written, not just the early access.
As an artist and regular attendee view, I personally wouldn't even mind if the sponsors and supersponsors had a specific daily timeslot to browse the DD. They decide to give something to a Con they love, so why not give them an hour of stress-free Den browsing? I can't afford sponsoring, but I totally agree that those who can should receive perks. Not to "pay" them, but to show them gratitude.
I personally tend to visit the Den shortly before closing or during popular events, because I dislike getting shoved around by a gazillion people. And guess what? I still got a hold of nearly all the artists I wanted to this year. Not being able to commission the 80€-sketch artists whose slots are sold out within seconds of the Den opening won't kill me. And yes, I have artwork made by those artists myself.
If you're that desperate to get a slot with a super limited artist, talk to them! Believe it or not, most artists are super agreeable. Be nice, be polite, value their work and you can even get files to print artwork at home because shipping long distance for a single print is just stupid. I have files on my PC for printing artwork that hung in the Mainstage =P
I agree, which is why I stand by putting that timeslot on Friday or Saturday and letting whoever wants to chase a hard to get commission to queue up on Thursday. All the other perks (Including early access at a day other than Thursday) are great ways to show the sponsors gratitude.
Of course missing on arsits whose slots are sold out within seconds won't kill anyone but getting to them shouldn't be decided by who agrees to pay 160 euro extra (Or get a friend to do it for them) - You want it, you queue up, fairly.
It still boils down to the following cases:
If you can get them on later days/outside of the con then this perk would be just as valuable on another day that isn't Thursday.
If you can't get them on later days/outside of the con then it isn't fair, it just adds 160 euro to whoever wants to get them or they simply ask a friend (If they wouldn't happen to super sponsor regardless)
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This is going in circles.
The underlying issue is that everyone — well, maybe not everyone, but a huge amount of people — wants to be among the first in the dealers room when it opens on Thursdays. Obviously, that cannot work and only leads to a huge queue with a waiting time of several hours. For safety reasons, we cannot allow that. The queue blocks the emergency routes, causes medical issues for those waiting in line for hours (dehydration, etc.)
Given that we currently cannot increase the size of the dealers room without doubling the registration fee to rent ECC hall 2 - what can we do then? The completely fair solution would be to randomly assign time slots for visiting the dealers room. I cannot imagine that anyone wants this. Another is to send anyone away whenever the queue has grown too large. This would cause a lot of aggression and complaints - and most importantly: it does not solve the issue as those turned away will just congregate elsewhere.
Another way is to stretch the rush by giving certain groups a head start, such as sponsors and super sponsors. This is giving our valued sponsors something back while reducing first rush issues. Fair enough. As a side effect, it effectively drives away wisecracks who'd camp out in front of the doors... However, the combined group of regular and super sponsors grew to approximately 900 attendees, almost a third of our total number of attendees. While we very much appreciate their support and thank everyone for their contribution, this poses the problem that the first rush queue got way too long to be handled safely again. So this year we decided split the combined sponsor group into super sponsors and regular sponsors. This reduced the size of the queue for both groups and thus the individual waiting time, and kept it safe for everyone.
Thus, while super sponsors are getting something extra this way, it's basically a side effect of crowd control.
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This is going in circles.
The underlying issue is that everyone — well, maybe not everyone, but a huge amount of people — wants to be among the first in the dealers room when it opens on Thursdays. Obviously, that cannot work and only leads to a huge queue with a waiting time of several hours. For safety reasons, we cannot allow that. The queue blocks the emergency routes, causes medical issues for those waiting in line for hours (dehydration, etc.)
Given that we currently cannot increase the size of the dealers room without doubling the registration fee to rent ECC hall 2 - what can we do then? The completely fair solution would be to randomly assign time slots for visiting the dealers room. I cannot imagine that anyone wants this. Another is to send anyone away whenever the queue has grown too large. This would cause a lot of aggression and complaints - and most importantly: it does not solve the issue as those turned away will just congregate elsewhere.
Another way is to stretch the rush by giving certain groups a head start, such as sponsors and super sponsors. This is giving our valued sponsors something back while reducing first rush issues. Fair enough. As a side effect, it effectively drives away wisecracks who'd camp out in front of the doors... However, the combined group of regular and super sponsors grew to approximately 900 attendees, almost a third of our total number of attendees. While we very much appreciate their support and thank everyone for their contribution, this poses the problem that the first rush queue got way too long to be handled safely again. So this year we decided split the combined sponsor group into super sponsors and regular sponsors. This reduced the size of the queue for both groups and thus the individual waiting time, and kept it safe for everyone.
Thus, while super sponsors are getting something extra this way, it's basically a side effect of crowd control.
Actually, we are definitely not going in circles as you managed to present me with the first logical, thought-out, non-fallacious and well put argument on this subject ever since I started having discussions and debates about it. This could single handedly convince me to admit defeat and drop this feedback point if:
a. I would understand why I got all the other responses first, even from people who should have known this reasoning. (I understand that you owe me nothing here, but why wasn't this brought up first if this is the reasoning?)
b. In the future, when the con (hopefully) continues to grow and eventually outgrows the venue / or requires the renting of ECC hall 2, assuming that now the queue is no longer an issue, the perk would be up for discussion again.
Since we can't really know anything about the future (Condition B) we can just ignore that one for now. I would be very satisfied with just condition A.
On a side note, do you know if this is also the main reason in other cons that choose to provide this perk?
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a. I would understand why I got all the other responses first, even from people who should have known this reasoning. (I understand that you owe me nothing here, but why wasn't this brought up first if this is the reasoning?)
This is literally the first thing I told you about this topic (see page 1). Sorry if that wasn't clear/detailed/logical/thought-out/non-fallacious enough.
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I beg to differ, this was never represented by you as the main reason. Instead it was just thrown in as another non-main argument. You phrased it as:
"Please also don't disregard the fact that having..."
If this was the main argument and was indeed a safety issue (blocking fire exits, dehydration from standing in queue) you would have used those terms instead of saying it's there to provide "a more comfortable experience".
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I'm sorry I did not use the terms you were expecting in the areas you deemed appropriate, my good sir. Though my idea of a discussion is over from the moment it turns to debating the definition and meaning of words and grammar.
I'm glad o'wolf was able to clarify the situation in the terms you were expecting. Thank you for your feedback.
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You cannot seriously except me to believe that I (Or anyone else for that matter) could deduct from your post that the main reason for having an early access is as o'wolf have said - security/safety, especially after I (and others) have received many other (previously countered) reasons. How come other people that I have talked to (again, not mentioning names) that are supposed to know the main reason weren't able to provide it?
I'm sorry, I cannot consider the situation clarified as what I referred to as condition A was never satisfied.
(By the way, I fully agree that IF indeed early access is a must as o'wolf have said, then it is perfectly valid to give it to (super)sponsors).
I still want to hear opinions on the other unrelated points, this doesn't have to boil down to just early access discussion.
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As I am neither sponsor nor super-sponsor and rarely buy stuff in the Dealer's Den I might not be a pro on this. But I'd like to point out that rearranging the queue for whatever reason doesn't have an influence on what which artist is selling at which time eventually. The Eurofurence provides the space for the Dealer's Den, everything else is up to the artists. There are some rules regarding the content (no fan art, nothing illegal,...) and that you may not block other artists' space but there are no rules on how they do their commissions or selling their merchandise.
And that's perfectly fine because artists are no robots (robot-fursonas excluded) and are not indentured to spend their time in the way every individual attendee would like to. Or bring twice as many prints, jewellery, books or coffee cups as needed, so everyone has a chance to get one, despite the costs and storage room needed afterwards. Providing all this stuff you are seing in the Dealer's Den requires a lot of money, months of effort and litres of coffee for preparation AND for transporting it to the con and selling this to you. Many of the people in the Dealer's Den aren't doing this as a fulltime job but as a hobby, just as they don't attend the EF because their boss said so (like a community manager at a gamescom or an artist for marvel at a comic con) but because they love the furry fandom, furry art and they want to have a good time with other furries, including you.
Many of the artist's try to make compromises e.g. by offering not all commission slots at once. Many of them leave business cards at their table so you can contact them afterwards if you didn't catch a slot or just want to stay in contact. And they are all very nice people; if you ask nicely before the con, some may put one (enter your favourite item here) aside for you to get it when you're there. But no matter when you are and no matter what artist you want to have a commission from: There will always be something not available at this time when you are looking for it. This may be sad and frustrating but that's just not how the world works. We as attendees or staff can try to improve things, we can try to reach a level where these frustrating moments don't happen very often. That's what these threads and the critique panel at sunday is for. Nevertheless there are limitations simply because the world is not perfect and will never be. So at some point you might have to accept that no solution will end up to be perfect for everyone.
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Ok, so this is really becoming a bit... let's say tedious.
I'll make 2 parts, the first is roughly 2/3 of the post, if you're tired of the ongoing discussion, skip ahead to the other points further down.
We got the following points down:
DD items are often sold out - for specific artists - when normal attendees are able to get in. Ok, that's a given, and it wouldn't change even without any Sponsors at all. Some are high in demand, without those respective lines you need to camp hours before opening, missing out on events (as I said already) and leading to blocking the passages (as I said already). The size and order of arguments is non-important in that matter, it was said, don't throw it on the side, no matter how much emphasis was given towards it.
Solutions:
Ask the respective artist before the opening of the Dealers Den, some will say no, some will gladly give the respective item away beforehand, just simple business after all.
Ask a friend with a Supersonsor to reserve a slot, if you don't know anyone... well, get the Supersonsor yourself if you just can't live without the respective item in mind.
Ask the artist outside of a con for a commission, yes, not every artist offers those, but many do.
With those 3 in combination, receiving the respective item should be doable. There respective amount of people not able to work with even one of those 3 solutions is particularly small, so sadly to say - they don't matter in the big picture. If you're one of those people, well... that's as sadly to say tough luck, and surely possible to get yourself into the position to use one of those solutions with a bit of effort.
Also, as a fourth option: Propose a commission with triple payment up-front to the respective artist, many will gladly 'open' a spot in their list. If you really want something, there is always a way.
Next thing: Unfairness. If you want to speak about that, don't disregard any particular point about it because of your personal views. ANY perk at all is unfair, that's why it's... well... a perk. Nobody will even care if you pay the Supersonsor or normal attendee if you're blatantly stating "I'll only do it IF!', this line of reasoning is useless. Either you like the con enough to pay the extra price, or you don't, nothing more, nothing less. Everything else is a bonus, was always intended like this, and is mostly handled like this as well, with beneficial side-effects that can't be overlooked.
So, given this, I'm also quite curious as to which items you might refer to, or rather the artists in respect which are usually sold out by the time the normal attendees have entrance. If it was a special item, I'm sure with a personal talk many things can be handled. If they were not merch but individual things... well, those are rare in itself, and the only obvious one are commissions of any sort, leading us back to those said solutions. If the artist is out of materials to provide any service you absolutely want, and just can't afford not to have for your mental well-being... suggest going out and getting said materials for them, I'm sure the respective artist is fairly happy about that, and Berlin is a nice and big town with everything available in the course of a single day.
If you got a solution, then please present it, don't just say 'stop this, it's unfair!'. Yes... life is unfair, deal with it. If you want to make it better, provide solutions to make it such, if someone smashes it to smithereens because it involves massive problems accounted to the idea, make it better until it's a viable solution. If it's shut down then... well, then and only then you got the right to complain.
As for artists being out in general: Not everyone will EVER be able to get a picture of the 'famous' artists. Either because their price-range is out of reach, or the slots are always closed, or any other reason. Just because other people get access at different times, the same amount will still receive something from them. So, the bigger question for me is who to give them to rather. Normal attendees or any sort of Sponsor? I would say the later, simply because they keep the convention running to a large degree. Quite a large amount of artists are freelancers without any knowledge about running a proper business either, so they don't know when to raise the price, or how to price from the beginning, which leads to said 'cheap but never available' artists.
But away from that now, I'll speak about the other parts of your initial post then:
Water availability:
That's actually quite a hefty problem at Estrel, as a single bottle of water from their hotel costs 8€, which is... well... sorry to use the term, but that price is simply appalling. There ought to be a simple way to receive clean, fresh and simple tap-water, nothing fancy or out of the norm, just fluid to live by, that's true.
I suggest talking about water-dispensers with degradable cups, they are cheap to rent and can be set up in minutes. Just the allowance from the hotel needs to be there. And if they don't allow it, it would be a good thing for their business, but a bad thing for their reputation definitely. Nobody likes people falling down from dehydration, and we have far too many each year anyway. That would alleviate the problem slightly. If it can't be done out of safety concerns of any way... well, then that's a shame.
Feedback session:
I frankly wasn't there, missed the timespot, so I can't speak much about it. What I suggest is a separate panel if time allows for it, with some of the people in higher positions being there to receive the feedback related to their posts. It would make it easier to get the lines sorted out if it becomes a common thing, as well as better the con with out-of-the-box thinking.
Main bar:
I mainly got my things there, this year they were quicker then before. Not perfect, sometimes they worked literally at snails pace, focusing on shifting around things rather then actually selling stuff, but that's the common thing we got used to. It's not bad, it's not perfect, but it's fine for the mass of people. They need to work on a better system to get the most wanted things out swiftly though.
Length of the PPS:
It's fine, therefore 3 segments. Just Cheetah needs to allow other ideas then his own to be done. One good way to achieve this would be a little price-event, drafts are sent in after the topic for the next con is revealed and the best draft wins a little price... and becomes next years paw-pet-show. It would keep the quality of the show up sky-high, as well as solve those problems with clear overworking and time limitations for thinking up new stories over and over again. It's a great show, it's had great years, but the same problems arise regularly, especially with evaluating what's a quality story and what isn't. The team makes a massive effort, but it simply feels like there isn't put enough effort - or simply not the most efficient effort rather said - into proof reading and plugging plot-holes.
As a few of those things which shouldn't happen but have:
The main character not progressing emotionally during the play.
Side characters are the actual main characters.
The 'villain' side is abstracted and not properly worked out.
Changes in characters from one scene to another are sometimes not explained at all.
That's why EF 14 and 23 were such good shows remembered by many. Those parts were all clear set, it was emotional and understandable for most people, and the time wasn't any concern. If those things can be made as good as the acting, the preparation of the puppets and the work put into effects then every year would be as memorable. Though.. it's also the hardest part to get right, and even seasoned story readers and writers miss out on crucial things from time to time, it would simply lower the chances of such things to happen.
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Kulze: The script literally takes about 8 months to develop in tandem with all the details of the show. In the beginning Cheetah and Eisfuchs visit each other driving through Germany for up to once per scene per weekend to flesh it all out. A scenario with a submitted draft from the _outside_ and prize is just impossible in our setup.
What is very realistic though is to motivate someone who has a great passion for this kind of thing to join our team and contribute to the script from the _inside_ (it's written online for the team to participate), and if it goes well steer bigger parts of it for the following year. It takes a lot of dedication and time, but we are very welcoming and supportive to newcomers so having another fresh writer or editor learning the trade of our team and turning productive with us is quite possible. :)
Regarding sponsors I keep seeing a common misconception here which is not so easy to figure out from our PR:
Sponsors don't help the convention afford better and bigger things! The budget is mostly fixed before the convention is made - after all, we need planning safety. Sponsors are there as part of a mix calculation, their sole point is to keep the prices for the lower tier down. If there were less (super)sponsors, we would still need about the same money to run the con, and hence the prices for the other tier(s) would go up. There are no extras afforded for the con or its staff or decorations or stage or anything - It all goes directly into supporting your other fellow congoers by making the con more affordable for them.
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What is very realistic though is to motivate someone who has a great passion for this kind of thing to join our team and contribute to the script from the _inside_ (it's written online for the team to participate), and if it goes well steer bigger parts of it for the following year. It takes a lot of dedication and time, but we are very welcoming and supportive to newcomers so having another fresh writer or editor learning the trade of our team and turning productive with us is quite possible. :)
And that means, team members can make suggestions and help editing / streamlining the dialogues, etc.
Regarding sponsors I keep seeing a common misconception here which is not so easy to figure out from our PR:
Sponsors don't help the convention afford better and bigger things! The budget is mostly fixed before the convention is made - after all, we need planning safety.
I have to clarify this a bit: Sponsors definitely DO help the convention to afford bigger and better things. And the budget is in fact quite dynamic, planning safety is
attained by starting out with a conservative estimation based on the previous year, and adapting that upwards when actual cash starts flowing in. But of course hai is right
in that all attendance fees end up in the same bucket, there is no differentiation between the different types. Sponsors and Supersponsors simply contribute more
to everything. And that, of course, keeps the base fee down - because logically, if we wanted to achieve the same without sponsors, the base fee would need to be higher.
However, calling it "the sole purpose" is a bit of an oversimplification. In the end, every penny collected has the purpose of delivering bang for the buck.
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Water availability:
That's actually quite a hefty problem at Estrel, as a single bottle of water from their hotel costs 8€, which is... well... sorry to use the term, but that price is simply appalling. There ought to be a simple way to receive clean, fresh and simple tap-water, nothing fancy or out of the norm, just fluid to live by, that's true.
I don't know what's the hangup about free water in germany, either. And I've grown up here. It's one of those cultural quirks that we just have to deal with. If I went to hotel management and asked them to give people something to drink without charging for it, I'd get that questioning stare that a manager gives you if you just talked to them in a foreign language they don't understand.
Here's what I do: I carry a water bottle with me, that I keep refilling with tap water. Tap water in germany has higher quality criteria than bottled water, it's essentially free, and available to even non-hotel guests in every washroom.
Feedback session:
I frankly wasn't there, missed the timespot, so I can't speak much about it. What I suggest is a separate panel if time allows for it, with some of the people in higher positions being there to receive the feedback related to their posts. It would make it easier to get the lines sorted out if it becomes a common thing, as well as better the con with out-of-the-box thinking.
We used to do that in the past, but we stopped - because it's really difficult to get everyone in a director position into one room at the same time, and in a mentally enough relaxed state to be open for a flood of unfiltered input like that :) We have our own little customer satisfaction team now, who run the feedback panel and the feedback survey, and help us with filtering the actual information from the avalanche of feedback we get so that we have something constructive to work with.
Main bar:
I mainly got my things there, this year they were quicker then before. Not perfect, sometimes they worked literally at snails pace, focusing on shifting around things rather then actually selling stuff, but that's the common thing we got used to. It's not bad, it's not perfect, but it's fine for the mass of people. They need to work on a better system to get the most wanted things out swiftly though.
Yeah, the second bar under the breakfast area is usually better and faster. We're relaying all complaints we get on site immediately to the manager. Unfortunately, feedback we give them after the con is almost worthless, because it's impossible for them to reconstruct the circumstances.
Just Cheetah needs to allow other ideas then his own to be done. One good way to achieve this would be a little price-event, drafts are sent in after the topic for the next con is revealed and the best draft wins a little price... and becomes next years paw-pet-show. It would keep the quality of the show up sky-high, as well as solve those problems with clear overworking and time limitations for thinking up new stories over and over again.
Actually, thinking up new stories over and over again makes you better at this :)
One of the reasons this show works is that we have the luxury of writing a story around the physical and timely constraints that are in our way, and create roles that exactly match the abilities of the actors in the team. We have to crank out a complete script that works within 5 months of weekend sessions, and then develop the play within 4 rehearsals. It takes a lot of experience to make that work.
If someone sent me a draft of sky-high quality, I would totally consider working on it.
But there's no guarantee a contributed script would be any better than what we do. Also, working with submitted scripts is a lot ... and I mean A LOT more difficult than it sounds. Also for the contributor. They'd have to be prepared to be rejected, and their work to be revised and rewritten, for example. Or live with the fact that a completely well written story could be unfavorable to the volunteers who'll have to play it for whatever reason.
People tend to jump on such an opportunity with a lot of unrealistic expectations, which is why I wouldn't want to make a contest that makes any promises in advance, for example.
Yeah, it's complicated :)
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As a few of those things which shouldn't happen but have:
The main character not progressing emotionally during the play.
Side characters are the actual main characters.
The 'villain' side is abstracted and not properly worked out.
Changes in characters from one scene to another are sometimes not explained at all.
Just for balance's sake: I enjoy supporting protagonists. (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SupportingProtagonist) And I like the idea of abstract villains - not every threat has a single face with a twirlable mustache. In the end, we know the relevant details of ERG: they've got a strong, but fading amount of influence on the government, they're not above sending hit-squads and bombs, they want their bomb back. But in the end, this wasn't a story about them, it was about our dearest snow kitty and the relationship with her family. Spending time on building a proper villain would have made the show even longer, but it would not have helped the central conflict.
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Since I don't want to clog this thread with repeated replies to the same arguments (about early access) I will no longer respond to stuff that I have already countered previously. (I am active here regularly, if you feel your argument is being ignored by me but I did not cover it previously in this thread, give me a poke).
Short summary of my responses (details are somewhere in this thread)
"You can still get contested items after early access/outside of the con/talk to the artist" - If so, then this perk isn't appealing anymore and would definitely not cause someone to supersponsor.
"It's just like other perks / it's as fair or unfair as other perks" - This is a false analogy because people getting the other perks doesn't directly screw me out of contested items. Who gets said items shouldn't be decided by who is willing to pay an extra fee. Reward people who sponsor, don't screw the ones that don't.
"The con needs sponsors or else the normal fee will go up" - This is a strawman argument because I never asked to remove sponsorship nor can anyone assert that removing the perk will reduce sponsorship levels in a significant way.
"It's a good thing because it's a free thing to give to sponsors" - Irrelevant, if it's unfair to others then it shouldn't be given even if it's free. You can also make a supersponsor exclusive elevator for free, that doesn't mean it's a good idea.
"We want to give sponsors a chill free non busy time to browse the den" - Fantastic idea, do it on Friday/Saturday.
"If you can afford commissions you can afford the extra fee" - Not only this isn't always true (200 euro is a lot more than 40), even if I can afford it doesn't mean I'm willing to pay 200 euro for said commission, especially if this money doesn't reach my favorite artist who I am chasing.
"You are just jealous" - This is an insulting ad hominem. Not only I can indeed afford it, I can also get a friend with super sponsor to do it for me. Even if I was jealous, this doesn't weaken my other arguments (Attack the arguments, not who is presenting them or why he is doing so).
"Dealer den and queue would be too cluttered at opening, becoming a safety hazard" - The only legit argument, if this was the reason, why was I given the other reasons before?
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As you summarized your stand neatly and as you said, you're ignoring anything you believe you answered already this thread may as well be locked now. I think everyone understood your point of view by now and it will be considered