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Eurofurence 26 — "Welcome to Tortuga"
Estrel Congress Center Berlin
July 28 – August 1, 2021
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Author Topic: Official Statement Regarding the Policy Debate on Twitter  (Read 32975 times)

Eisfuchs

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Re: Official Statement Regarding the Policy Debate on Twitter
« Reply #60 on: 22.06.2015, 14:38:57 »

Let's not forget that the rules that seem to offend so many have been in place for 5 years now. Nobody seemed to have an issue with them for all that time. So Eurofurence did not "decide to ban" anything for years.

And I'm pretty sure bringing a teddy bear is no problem at all.
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kooriki

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Re: Official Statement Regarding the Policy Debate on Twitter
« Reply #61 on: 22.06.2015, 19:43:04 »

"All costumes and accessories related to ageplay" - That means teddy bears, pacifiers, dungaroos, blankies are (probably?) included as well as they are a pretty common item brought to ageplay events.

Its fine that the rule has been in place for 5 years. I've never been to an EF so I never cared to look into this specific cons rules before. Now that it's gotten more popular, people are noticing this con has a stricter/more conservative set of rules. How long they have been in place doesn't matter, people still have the right to complain (or cheer) the rules.
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Ghostbear

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Re: Official Statement Regarding the Policy Debate on Twitter
« Reply #62 on: 22.06.2015, 20:15:53 »

Last page Dhary, as the head of security, pretty much defined what works and what not. And while it's not perfect and some things could maybe be discussed at a later point in time, for the moment, the rules ain't actually so bad.
Discussed later in a constructive way, after things have calmed down a bit and after people stopped pouring kerosene into a smoldering fire that just went out, but is still hot enough to light up again.
Clean badges and room signs are not a problem. Plushies have always been a big part on the con. Kigus are allowed too, as are stealthily worn diapers under normal clothing, as long as they don't smell. And I don't think anybody would hassle you over a pair of dungarees.
Honestly, I think of worse rules. And as I said, maybe some other things can be worked out later.

And yes, I'm a cub/babyfur myself. o.o'
« Last Edit: 22.06.2015, 20:21:45 by Ghostbear »
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Cheetah

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Re: Official Statement Regarding the Policy Debate on Twitter
« Reply #63 on: 22.06.2015, 21:05:03 »

"All costumes and accessories related to ageplay"

Only *if* they are a "blatant" display of fetish wear, as specified in the paragraph above. As I said earlier, it depends heavily on context - there's just no easier way to phrase it without making it less clear that it is right now. The intention is: We don't want people dressed as adult babies running around - the same way we don't want people dressed as leather puppies or with inflatable gimpsuits in public. It's just not that kind of party. That doesn't mean you can't drop a hint at your orientation. You totally can. Just stay classy. People do it all the time.

(We especially put an exception at the bottom, btw. If you manage to do in a way that is acceptable, non-offensive or even good looking, we're totally happy with pretty much everything, regardless how it could theoretically be categorized. Take it as a challenge if you will.)
« Last Edit: 22.06.2015, 21:09:37 by Cheetah »
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Eisfuchs

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Re: Official Statement Regarding the Policy Debate on Twitter
« Reply #64 on: 22.06.2015, 21:09:21 »

I've never been to an EF[...]
That's all I need to know.
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kooriki

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Re: Official Statement Regarding the Policy Debate on Twitter
« Reply #65 on: 22.06.2015, 21:29:48 »

Ah Ghostbear - You say dungarees and teddybears are ok but I don't get that from the official rules and general discussion over the last few weeks. Even aside from that, with the whole ageplay issue being a hot debate this last few weeks I wouldn't want to risk attending this one as a known babyfur. Once EF21 is done we can see how welcomed the cubs that did attend felt it went; Both from staff and regular attendees. The rules might not be different for this EF, but the discussion certainly has been. To be honest it's a pretty big trek to risk being confined to a couple of cub-friendly hotel rooms. Saying that, if you've gone as a cub and had no problems in previous years, that says a lot..!

Cheetah: Good to hear. I think you're talking about 'the bottom line' blurb at the bottom of that page? What you wrote here is MUCH clearer than whats on the rules page. Maybe next year they can have you write that page, you're articulate :)

Eisfuchs: :(
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Cheetah

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Re: Official Statement Regarding the Policy Debate on Twitter
« Reply #66 on: 22.06.2015, 21:33:53 »

I wouldn't want to risk attending this one as a known babyfur.

Some of our staff are babyfurs. And they never had any problem with our rules of conduct, or fellow staff members.

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Cheetah

Ghostbear

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Re: Official Statement Regarding the Policy Debate on Twitter
« Reply #67 on: 22.06.2015, 21:36:20 »

Kooriki, please take a look at the group pictures (and other pictures) from the last couple of years if you find the time. And then try counting the amount of plushies being carried around on the con. Plushies are such a big part of the furry fandom, they are not counted as "age play" items.
And for a pair of overalls/dungarees ... they are normal pants you can buy in stores. So I see no problems there as well.
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meo

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Re: Official Statement Regarding the Policy Debate on Twitter
« Reply #68 on: 23.06.2015, 12:05:50 »

Ok, some cents from someone who was last year at the Con.
At first lets face it, EF ist a BIG convention where lots of cultures comes together. It happens that someone trends to think about some items in another way as some other person. The Rules are written in a style so everyone can have fun (in my opinion). If you want to wear a playsuit do it at your room. There is no Bulling by that words! See it from the perspective of someone who is not into your fetish, Kink or whatever you call it.

Everyone can pick a part of the rule he doesn't like and mock the whole day, but ask yourself if that rule makes a relevant impact for you in having fun at a convention?
Is a pacifier worn in a public place an Item you need so bad to have fun? Aren't the human interactions at a convention that what makes the fun?

Think about it.

The moral standards of someone can prevent that he talks to you and you maybe couldn't be friends. I wouldn't want that to happen. I want to have Fun and make friends! I don't want a fetish to hinder me from going to a con.
Yes, you might say "Ageplay is not a Fetish" but ask yourself if you can live without it for the hours your in public? That's all the rules are asking you for!
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kooriki

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Re: Official Statement Regarding the Policy Debate on Twitter
« Reply #69 on: 23.06.2015, 21:19:13 »

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If you want to wear a playsuit do it at your room.

Thankfully the staff have clarified this and said that if its done tactfully and not overt then it's ok to wear what you like. Lets be honest, EF is a long way to travel to have to hide in a hotel room!

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See it from the perspective of someone who is not into your fetish, Kink or whatever you call it.

Closer to LARPing or a subculture/fandom, but call it what you like.

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The moral standards of someone can prevent that he talks to you and you maybe couldn't be friends.

If my hobby is so upsetting to someones morals then they wouldn't make a good friend anyway. We all can choose who we associate with. I personally avoid smokers for example - I don't like cigarettes stinking up my gear/clothing - yuck!)

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Yes, you might say "Ageplay is not a Fetish" but ask yourself if you can live without it for the hours your in public? That's all the rules are asking you for!

Lets look at it from the other side: Most people think of furries and the fandom as a fetish (Not far from the truth either). Would you be comfortable with a rule "No fursuits or furry accessories in areas the public can access"? Probably not, because we don't care if a couple of fools think the con is an organized fursuit orgy or are creeped out by dancing forest critters.

Anyways, Cheetah has been kind enough to (re)re-articulate EF's official policy on the issue which is good enough for me...!
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o'wolf

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Re: Official Statement Regarding the Policy Debate on Twitter
« Reply #70 on: 23.06.2015, 23:53:41 »

EF is a long way to travel to have to hide in a hotel room!

Have you ever seriously considered attending Eurofurence? Or is it some case of "I disagree with the policy of an event on a different continent that I won't be able to attend any time soon?" What is your motivation to discuss this here?

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Closer to LARPing or a subculture/fandom, but call it what you like.

Now that's peculiar, because further down you write:

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Lets look at it from the other side: Most people think of furries and the fandom as a fetish (Not far from the truth either).

So you are trying to tell us here that age play is just some entirely non-sexual role play but furry and the fandom at large are "a fetish". Sorry, that doesn't fly.

And by the way, as the press liaison I talk a lot to people outside the fandom and listen to how they perceive us. From my experience your impression that "most people" think of furry being a fetish is wrong. And before you play that "maybe in Europe" card: I've been travelling through the Americas a lot, it's not much different there.

Any inside perspective is distorted. This is valid for any social group. If you take a point of view from the outside, things are often much different. First of all, it's not completely black and white. There are large regional and cultural differences when it comes to what is still acceptable or not. However, fursuiters rarely raise an eyebrow anywhere. Open age play, on the other hand, is generally considered unacceptable in Germany. Our venues certainly do not want to be mentioned in a front page article picturing an Adult Baby in the tabloids. Which WILL happen if they find someone running around in such an outfit. And neither do I want to read my name along this, by the way. Even if it were my kink (which it isn't.)

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If my hobby is so upsetting to someones morals then they wouldn't make a good friend anyway. We all can choose who we associate with.

So, as you obviously don't agree with our morals (or even reasoning) and don't want to associate with us, why are you debating?

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we don't care if a couple of fools think the con is an organized fursuit orgy or are creeped out by dancing forest critters.

The dancing forest critters are one of the main aspects of the event, and nobody has a problem with it. We'd have a problem if our public image were that of a four day long orgy (regardless the "themeing"), as we are not that kind of event. It would require a completely different kind of venue, anyway. And attract a different audience, of course.
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kooriki

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Re: Official Statement Regarding the Policy Debate on Twitter
« Reply #71 on: 24.06.2015, 03:13:56 »

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Have you ever seriously considered attending Eurofurence?

Im going to be in London around that time and flights are pretty cheap. I've since made other plans so I'm not going to EF this year (Nothing to do with the recent twitter drama)

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So you are trying to tell us here that age play is just some entirely non-sexual role play but furry and the fandom at large are "a fetish". Sorry, that doesn't fly.

I was saying ageplay is like LARPing/a subculture/fandom, similar to the furry fandom. The PUBLIC perception of the both of these are that they are fetishes. (IE: It's inaccurate to equate ageplay with diaper fetishism similar to how it is inaccurate to equate the fandom with yiff.) I'm sorry if you misinterpreted what I was saying.


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And by the way, as the press liaison I talk a lot to people outside the fandom and listen to how they perceive us.

When you talk with people outside the fandom, do they know beforehand that you are a furry and supporter? That greatly influences their response. I'm a very private fur; No one but my S.O. knows. Coincidentally I work with a very 'out' furry. People around the office (who know what a furry is) thinks he's into kinky costumed animal sex. (Truth be told he's just very socially awkward.) Its not worth correcting them, but its noteworthy.

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Our venues certainly do not want to be mentioned in a front page article picturing an Adult Baby in the tabloids.

Yes, that has been mentioned many times and is accepted. This translates to: If ageplay is an integral part of your fursona/costume/fun, EF is probably not the furcon for you. If you still wish to attend you are welcome to wear your costume privately in your room.

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So, as you obviously don't agree with our morals (or even reasoning) and don't want to associate with us

Im a furry so I totally want to associate with other furries! Im going to assume that you, especially as a press liaison, aren't stating that ageplayers are morally objectionable? It sounds like that is what you are suggesting but I'm going to assume it's a language barrier. Truth be told I can befriend anyone! If a friend looks down their nose at me and is 'morally opposed' to my personal interests that would make for a difficult friendship. Why go if you're not welcome? Its about the attitude of the crowd. Policy is a different matter. Again, Cheetah has cleared this up - Babyfurs are totally welcome as long as they keep the ageplay low-key/hidden.

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We'd have a problem if our public image were that of a four day long orgy
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It would require a completely different kind of venue, anyway.

Hahaha, awesome..!
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Zefiro

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Re: Official Statement Regarding the Policy Debate on Twitter
« Reply #72 on: 24.06.2015, 08:44:52 »

If ageplay is an integral part of your fursona/costume/fun
So this is what this is about?
If I understand you correctly, if you can't "ageplay" - showing yourself in a way obviously regarded as (adult) baby by whichever means - then you're not having any fun, at all?
As opposed to it being one of many different activities you could do, each bringing joy - without this one, nothing is worth it?

I'm asking because this is what is puzzling me the most. I've my own kinks (also mentioned in the RoC, btw), but they are "add-ons". Sure, integral part of who I am and what I enjoy, but I can easily enjoy other parts of the fandom without them, and thus keep them to the room or to 'other conventions with fitting venues'. I'm sure even most fursuiters would be fine with a no-fursuit-area/time and still enjoy fandom activities (e.g. some small regulars' tables actually forbid wearing furry identification objects).


*purrrrrr*
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Klaatu

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Re: Official Statement Regarding the Policy Debate on Twitter
« Reply #73 on: 29.06.2015, 04:04:09 »

I can fully agree with Zefiro here.

And btw.: I'm still wondering why so many people think that EF is a convention (or an event in general) to display their fetishes. I mean...are you also wearing that stuff at your workplace or in public? I'm sure you don't. And why? Because it's inappropriate and easily causing problems. So why are you guys doing that at EF then? Because it's your free time/holidays and you're among people of your kind (furries)?
I think that many people forget (or don't realize) that EF is a public place as well and that it's being held at a location which is a 4* superior hotel with a kinda good reputation.

If you're showing off your fetishes by wearing inappropriate clothing and accessoires at a convention that clearly distances itself from that section (for the simple reason to be allowed to host a event like that at that place) you don't only negatively affect the general repution of our fandom, but also (more importantly!) our good relations with the hotel. THAT is the most important thing. If the hotel staff and direction feels uncomfortable with it (even if it's no blatantly sexual stuff), there's no need to discuss these things at all, it has to be accepted by every attendee that's going to visit that convention! And the job of the EF-team, the security and the public / press relations department is to make sure that the hotel feels comfortable with us to ensure that they wanna have us coming back next year again (and the years after). And every attendee should have that same purpose as well (if EF is important for you).

I sometimes have the impression that some attendees simply don't care how they're coming across in public or in front of the hotel personnel. But this is not how it works. There have to be rules to follow and if there are rules and you're not agreeing with them, then this might not be the right event for you. With the registration for a con, you automatically subscribe these rules. And still, a lot of people ignore these rules at the con, what causes more strain for the security. Or the sec doesn't see it at all (because they can't have their eyes everywhere), but others do, who then feel annoyed by it. Or the media finds exactly what they're searching for. Do we all want that?

EF is a convention about our furry culture with the main focus on art, music, entertainment, the community and many other cultural aspects. It's not a fetish convention and will never be. That's why there are no official fetish-panels/events in the schedule as well. Everything that happens at the hotel rooms happens at the privat space of the respective persons and is NOT part of the convention. And therefore it's ok, as long as you do not offend against the hotel rules (like destroying things, etc.). No one cares what you're doing at your room and no one considers it as part of the convention, because it's your private space. But please, as soon as you leave your private room, don't forget that you're back to the actual convention space again where clear rules are valid.

No one forbids you to be who you are and to live how you like to. But isn't it so difficult to just respect the rules of the con/hotel (even if you personally don't fully agree with them) and to be a bit more decent? It's only a matter of decency, nothing more than that. If you still think that these rules are not fair or you're feeling "offended" by them, then you should maybe take into consideration that EF might not be the right con for you and that you should maybe better visit conventions that are having the main focus on sexual things and are being held in special locations where you don't have to hide something you can't hide. :)


That are just my personal thoughts on this topic. I'm not part of a department that has something to do with it, so you actually don't have to care about what I've written here.
I just kindly recommend to read my thoughts on that and to think about it. Thanks. :)



« Last Edit: 29.06.2015, 04:08:01 by Klaatu »
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kooriki

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Re: Official Statement Regarding the Policy Debate on Twitter
« Reply #74 on: 30.06.2015, 05:56:21 »

Thanks for the reply Klaatu, my questions/concerns were already answered by Cheetah.

-K
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